Am I being oversensitive?

[DeltAlum]

A couple of comments:

All of these things are meant to add pressure and stress to the pledge period in one way or another -- if only worrying about when/if they will happen. Any of these can get out of hand because some people just don't know when to quit. That's dangerous.

All are considered hazing under the strict definition of the law and national organization rules.

Hazing is illegal. No getting around it. It's illegal. That's what nobody wants to deal with.

What you should do is a little harder. Your friend and brother, depending on how they feel about these situations, may really resent any action you may take, and those actions could cause really bad and lasting feelings.

So perhaps you should do nothing -- and hope nothing does get out of control. It probably won't. Hopefully.

Besides, sooner or later, they will get caught and lose ther charter. Especially if they're stupid enough to talk about this stuff. Let alone do it.

[Lil_G]

DeltAlum, you've reiterated that comment in all the hazing threads. I would like to suggest that the law is not always representative of society, just because it exists does not mean it's just.

How many times have we broken laws that we consider insiginificant or pointless, e.g. jaywalking....

200 years ago in England there were over a hundred offences in which someone could receive capital punishment, is that just?

The law changes everyday, instead of accepting laws that aren't applicable (e.g. killing a chapter for savenger hunts), why not rally to change them?

Yes there needs to be greater resources with respect to hazing and it does have to be strongly enforced - but not in it's current form.

One last comment and I do not mean any disrespect by this; you've mentioned that your house has been a traditionally strong chapter of Delta Tau Delta. I remember you admitting in so many words that you were hazed since obviously hazing was more prevalent in the 60s & 70s. Would you be able to personally remove your chapter for much-less severe hazing infractions (as stated in Barbara's definition) than what you were exposed to?

[damasa]

Originally posted by RoseRed
First of all I would especially like to thank Shelacious and DeltAlum for their constructive comments. The posts that at least pretended to see my viewpoint rather than simply flaming me (which I guess is easier for some people to do) are the ones that helped and made me reconsider my opinions. While I still feel that it's wrong I guess that doesn't really matter as much so long as no one gets hurt. I will simply remove myself from any situations that I may feel are offensive. Shelacious' post was particuarly effective because she mentioned what she would have done in a similar situation . . . in my opinon (no matter how little it means to some of you people) those type of posts are what helps to make GC such a wonderful (for the most part) environment to ask questions and gain advice. She may not have agreed with me, but she took into account where I was coming from and responded with her reactions and CONSTRUCTIVE criticisms. I have read all of the posts and would like to thank the THOUGHFUL contributors (as opposed to people who simply flipped out on me). I'm sure that everything will be fine, all concerned will wind up happy in the end. So, thanks again . . .

~RoseRed

You stated constructive criticisms, you got that. When you post something like this, you can't truly expect to have everyone be in agreement, certainly not with a topic such as hazing, that's a given, there are different sides that people take for different reasons. I also think that many ppl were thoughtful and not flaming but you may have overlooked that? Who knows, my comment about the studies was just that, there are many other things in our college lives to be worrying about, there's enough stress involved already, no matter how well any/all of us might be doing in our studies, schoolwork, and relating to others in our social life.

In all, you did ask in the topic of the thread if you were being oversensitive, that right there can open up the thread to criticism, just a thought.


I'm not even going to go into hazing laws, how this and that is illegal for this and that reason. And i'm not going to recite what insurance groups claim which activity is or is not hazing. I feel that it has gone way out of control now, and I feel sorry for those that have to abide from what I will assume will be ever more severe restrictions say ten or twenty years from now. Assuming that greek life is still operating at the level it is now. There are only so many things that you can restrict before it becomes too overwhelming to continue the activity that is being restricted.

[Cloud9]

I totally agree with you Rosered, it just doesn't make sense. I would never want to injure, taunt, or humiliate my future sisters...I would never be able to look them in the eye after they crossed! And just what "mystical" things are these juvenile acts supposed to teach? Besides being able to recite the Greek alphabet while holding a flaming branch before my arm is burned off(Ah yes, sooooo useful!). OR being able to survive on mayonaise, sardine and strawberry jam sandwiches(which as you know is always an immediate possibility. And of course, that vital ability to withstand physical violence in my personal relationships---after all, you can't BE a true friend until you BEAT one, right? I'm sorry, but however many lame excuses and twisting around of the facts you use, in the end, hazing is just whack and really there are much more effective methods to use--and I've seen both sides, so I'm not biased in experience. Besides, it's got to be tiring being a jerk each semester to each new pledge class, that takes so much more energy than teaching NMs to plan an event, or hold fun activities to teach the history, or requiring pledges to participate in a philantrophy event with sisters to bond while instilling values of service. I dunno, maybe you feel too uncomfortable to turn them in, but you should definitely make your feelings known to these men who are close to you. It's important not to just close our eyes to the negative things happening around us---that is how groups come to think they're invincible, and can do whatever they want to their pledges...and eventually, Greeks end up in the newspaper...again.

[DeltAlum]

Lil_G

You're absolutely right about the law not always representing society. No argument.

You're also right that many minor infractions are sometimes overlooked. But if a cop is feeling especially nasty, he or she may decide to carry out the letter of the law. That's what a lot of universities are doing right now. They simply don't want us around in our present form -- or at all. So, when we play fast and loose with the rules, we play right into their hands. Don't we?

I don't go out of my way to jaywalk if I know a traffic officer is standing on the other side of the street. I don't drive over the speed limit if I know I'm in a notorious radar trap. So, is that hypocritical? Maybe. But it's also self preservation.

There are numerous things I don't agree with.

But they're still the law until the law is changed.

And when you break the law and get caught you suffer the consequences. Not agreeing with a dumb law is not going to keep you from paying a fine or out of jail. Not agreeing with a national or university rule is not going to save your charter. You're going to lose those cases.

By the way, guess who is at fault for all of the laws and rules? We are. There wouldn't be a law against bank robbery if nobody had ever robbed a bank. There wouldn't be laws against hazing unless people had been hurt (mentally or physically) or killed or injured otherwise.

By the way again. Has anybody noticed how many alcohol and hazing related deaths there have been this year? Way too many.

Now, I'll say it again -- as I've said in other threads -- the intrepretation of some of these things is silly. But if we keep playing little games trying to beat the system, they'll just get more silly.

You're also right that I've said this over and over again. Someone has to keep saying it until we stop losing chapters -- or the system dies completely which makes the point moot.

As for my chapter, while I would not be at all happy about it, when I accepted my position I agreed to carry out the policies of the Fraternity. If I had to close my chapter, I would. I'll bet there are lots of cops who think certain laws are stupid -- but when faced with a complaint, they are duty bound to uphold those laws.

So, am I going to start a crusade to change the laws? Nope, because I don't have any problem obeying them -- whether I agree with them or not. Besides, one sign of experience and maturity is learning which battles are worth fighting, and which ones are just a waste of energy.

It's no threat to my manhood if I can't scream at someone in a lineup, or do other sophomoric things to humiliate another human being. Calling people silly or degrading names if for children. I don't get any kind of kick out of paddling someone or otherwise assaulting them. I get no big charge out of making someone do pushups. And (here's another one of those things I've said before), over the past thirty-five years I haven't seen that hazing makes brotherhood any stronger.

In my opinion, if I felt I wanted to (or had he right to) haze someone because someone hazed me, that doesn't say much for my personal character. It wasn't right back then and it isn't right now. The times have changed. When I used to get into trouble and use the excuse, "But everyone else does it," my grandfather used to ask me if everyone else jumped off a cliff, would you do that, too? Trite, but effective.

What I have a real problem with is the people who are fooling around and killing the Greek System and are too myopic to realize it.

Enough.

[damasa]

Originally posted by DeltAlum
Lil_G

You're also right that I've said this over and over again. Someone has to keep saying it until we stop losing chapters -- or the system dies completely which makes the point moot.

Enough.

With the laws that are already in place, and the new laws to come and the existing laws due to change, who's to say that the system won't die completely due to an outrageous amount of restrictions? The way it's going now, we won't be able to require philanthropy events, fundraisers, history education, and so on. Since it is all deemed "required" it could very well be deemed "to add stress or pressure" to a "new member" in the rushing process.

We once had books we carried around to interview the active members of the fraternity, which I thought was an excellent way to get to know the guys in the house. Due to new hazing policies and laws, we can't do that. You know what, each semester, every new pledge or "new member" learns less and less about the members. Not knowing the members allows the missed opportunity to learn of fraternity stories, passed events, formals, all those good things that are held dear to each and every active. I can only imagine what someone that was rushing would do while pledging a house with 75,100, 150 members.

Blaine

[LeslieAGD]

Originally posted by damasa
You know what, each semester, every new pledge or "new member" learns less and less about the members. Not knowing the members allows the missed opportunity to learn of fraternity stories, passed events, formals, all those good things that are held dear to each and every active. I can only imagine what someone that was rushing would do while pledging a house with 75, 100, 150 members.

Blaine

Blaine, you are so right!

[DeltAlum]

I've said pretty much all I can say -- many times as Lil_G pointed out.

So, here's the bottom line to me. Maybe the rules will get more stringent and kill the system or maybe the won't. Especially if we start obeying the ones currently in place.

But, in my opinion, if we don't do something, the entire Greek system will almost certainly die under the weight of university administrations, the law and suffocating costs of liability insurance.

I'm way past my undergraduate days. It's your choice.

[LeslieAGD]

Originally posted by RoseRed


This organization still does interviews and carries signature/interview books. I have no issues with this activity. I feel that it works well and is very constructive. Likewise I would have no problem with somone asking me to interview all of my sisters. I take issue with pointless activities that could be replaced with much more effective methods of bonding and assesment.

~RoseRed

I have a question for you...Why do you feel it is okay for this organization to do interviews (which is considered hazing), but not have nicknames (which is technically considered hazing as well)? You seem to have admitted that it's okay because you don't have a problem with it. Maybe that's how some of the brothers feel about the other activities.

[justamom]

Well, I'm on a posting roll now. Maybe it's because I'm thinking about my son.

Aside from the laws about hazing- Did it EVER occur to those who favor hazing that PARENTS refuse to support the system with their $$$$ BECAUSE of the pain inflicted either to themselves-a friend or stories they heard??? Why should I support an org that is going to beat up my son?!?!? Don't you think I'll do everything in my POWER to find out WHO continues these kinds of practices? Did it EVER occur to you that a parent might say, "Well son, if you want to pledge A, B, or C, that's fine with me, but XYZ beats the tar out of their pledges so sorry, NO MOOLA for THAT fraternity! Do you honestly think I am the only one??? When you see posts that state, "My parents didn't want me to join a GLO..." Did anyone stop to wonder WHY? I'd rather see him remain an independant than coerced into dangerous, potentially life-threatening situatons. This is an absolute truth and I SUPPORT the Greek system!

[DeltAlum]

JAM,

You bet!

[Kevin]

All I know is that I agree with most of ya'll when you say that this stuff has to stop for us to survive. Having helped found my chapter I'd rather see it shut down than to perpetuate any sort of hazing culture. This goes against the very moral fiber that holds my organization (and I'd presume most other GLO's) together. Presently at my school there is one chapter that is still operating not recognized by the university due to alcohol violations. There are 2 other chapters that are in trouble with their HQ's for hazing allegations (I'm not naming names). That leaves only us, & 3 other fraternities. I hate to see this happen to the system.

Sure we have rivalry and even at times have issues. But we only serve in the long run to strengthen eachother. Seeing first hand what violation of the law and of internal hazing policies can do to our houses, WHAT DOES IT TAKE TO CONVINCE YOU PEOPLE!?!

All I can say is that I pray these chapters that close are successfully recolonized by alumni and actives who have opened their eyes to reality. I hope this is simply an evolution of the greek community.. Survival of the fittest.

LHT
Kevin Taylor
MT #5
University of Central Oklahoma

[Lil_G]

a lot of valid points established...sorry for the lateness of the reply, something about working full-time and being a student...

if anyone remembers when i first came to these boards i argued the opposite to my current stance on hazing. I depledged a non-NIC fraternity because i felt they didn't achieve the ideals they preached, and not necessarily what was being done to me. I have nothing vs this organization or any of it's members, some of the pledging that i experienced (which was difficult) i felt served valid purposes, some stuff did not...if i told any of you what my pledging entailed you would be most likely be shocked but more than anything else you wouldn't understand the symbolism of the acts. Now if ABC fraternity committed these same acts but were insinuated in a different manner, the product may be completely different. It's about interpretation, that's why i suggested to leave what remains behind closed doors there, because what you hear from word of mouth is probably not the full story. This chapter will suffer the repercussions of these acts and when that happens, you can rest assured that these acts will cease, and not because of your conscious but due to their stupidity. That's why i disagree with the complete 'pcness' of the greek system nowadays, to me it seems anything that's difficult or uncomfortable in any form has been eliminated from the greek system. Different forms of hazing produce different results, some forms of hazing should stay and some should obviously go.

[catlady]

What everyone also has to remember is that people are becoming more sensitive to what is considered hazing. One of the reasons is because there are more people willing to discuss it. As well as the fact that more fraternities and sororities are taking a no tolerance stance on hazing.

As a result of all of this "publicity" people are learning more about it as well as deciding that they are against it. So while the laws do not always reflect what society is willing to accept, in this case the environment is quickly changing. Laws are created to help change society even more quickly then just allowing people to evolve on their own.

I am hearing more and more often of pledges who felt that they were being hazed going to the school newspapers and telling their story. In fact, we just had a chapter do so for my fraternity and reading the story it makes me mad that this chapter is in my fraternity. And none of the events were even harsh, they were just humiliating. Problem is that with the Internet, when a story like that goes up, everyone reads it and some other schools may even decide to print the story as well which embarasses the local chapter (which also happened in this case)

So in today's society, what one chapter does no longer just affects the reputation for that chapter but any others who have charters as well. People who believe in hazing, even the harmless things need to realize that while they think it's okay, many of their members in other chapters aren't taking it any more.