Ebay: the Napster of Greek insignia - Page 2

FuzzieAlum · #16 02-20-2002, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Excellent point. GLOs have a LOT of issues facing them: declining membership, chapter house rapes, dead pledges, racism, anti-greek sentiment on the rise, lawsuits, charters being pulled, rituals being revealed on the internet. And what are you spending your BTUs on? Badges on ebay!

You have no idea what else I'm spending my money on ... I could be buying crack or donating thousands of dollars to my nationals for. I wouldn't make too many assumptions!

Likewise, I can make a pretty educated guess that as a collector you spend money on badges. Should I therefore assume you aren't giving anything to the Greek community? I'm tempted to, but that would be pretty judgmental of me.

And most GLOs do not in fact have badge buyback funds. That is not what they are spending their money on.

If I still had a copy of my membership agreement, it would be buried in a box somewhere. Sorry I don't have it handy to whip out.

SAEalumnus · #17 02-21-2002, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wptw
Can anyone post the actual text from one these lifelong lease agreements? I've heard many paraphrased synopses, but I have never seen the actual wording. My guess is that these documents are just signed affirmations of GLO policy, and not a legal and binding lease agreement. If anyone has the actual text to prove otherwise, please do.

Response:

Quote:

Originally posted by SAEactive

From the 2001 Fraternity Laws of Sigma Alpha Epsilon (National Laws)

TITLE XIII. General Rules.

Section 66. Insignia of Membership.

Subsection A. Membership Badge

1. A membership badge shall be loaned by the Fraternity to each initiate and, upon payment of such sum as may be fixed by the Supreme Council, to any member in good standing. In either case, the membership badge shall remain the property of the Fraternity and shall be worn only by members in good standing. For due cause communicated in writing to a member, the membership badge may be recalled by the Fraternity.

2. The use of the membership badge or its design upon any article of jewelry is forbidden, except by authorization of the Supreme Council.

Section 67. Official Jeweler(s). When the Fraternity has entered into contract with an official jeweler(s), it shall be unlawful for any member of the Fraternity to display or offer for sale in any Sigma Alpha Epsilon Chapter Collegiate house or elsewhere any badges, jewelry or other articles, bearing the crest, coat of arms or letters of the Fraternity, except as the representative of the official jeweler(s) with whom such contracts have been made.

When a man is initiated into Sigma Alpha Epsilon, he promises to be governed by the Fraternity's National Laws, among other documents. My membership badge always has been and always shall be the property of the Fraternity. The initiation fee I paid was what was considered to be a reasonable sum for the privilege of wearing the badge for my lifetime. When I die, my badge must be either buried with me or sent back to National for archiving - under no circumstances is it to be sold. SAE is not the only GLO to have this kind of rule and I guarantee yours does too. All you have to do is ask your HQ to confirm it.

Sweetums · #18 02-21-2002, 02:09 AM

Maybe I'm being completely unreasonable, but what's the problem with buying a used badge and wearing it? I bought myself a new one, as most new iniatiates do, but, I think it would be kind of cool in a way to wear someone else's badge, because you'll be carrying their story with you. Has anyone ever thought of it in that way?

Katey Alpha Gam · #19 02-21-2002, 03:23 AM

Sweetums, to a point i agree with you. I think that an AGD badge is better to be wornby me than thrown in a box or a case for some jewlery collector to stare it. But, it is the property of the fraternity first and foremost. If I am not mistaken, I think that at least AGD, cannot wear another members badge unless it is consented. So, if she would be chapter grand by now, do you just assume that she would be happy that an active sister had it b/c it was being put to use, or would she want it to be given back to the IHQ? It's quite a question. BTW, Alpha Gamma Delta pins and badges are OWNED by AGD. We are simply allowed to use them, we have to ask if we want to add pearls! So, I doubt it is legal for our pins to be sold. We are told that if we ever see a pin or badge on e-bay, that we notify them of it immediately.

Beryana · #20 02-21-2002, 07:01 AM

I just wanted to share with ya'll something rather interesting that I found on ebay. If you actually read through the text - not just look at the number of pins and asking price! - you will find arrogance beyond belief. I personally was slightly offended by the "fraternity for women comment" and was amused by the "I don't care who the actual owner is, I just want my money back" attitude!

Fraternally,

Sarah

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI...tem=1076476613

Beryana · #21 02-21-2002, 07:05 AM

Here's another listing - this guy must be clearing out his collection!

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI...tem=1076473156

wptw · #22 02-21-2002, 09:47 AM

God morning all,

SAEalum: While very interesting, what you've posted is not a legal lease agreement. It is simply a statement of GLO policy, just as I thought. You may or may not have signed this, but it still does not constitute a lease agremeent which would be binding upon your heirs or assigns.

Can anyone post the text from one of these "lifelong lease agreements", or are they all just a statement of GLO policy as SAEalum posted?

wptw

dzrose93 · #23 02-21-2002, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wptw
Yup, I'm a collector. I've sold a few badges on ebay and I've bought hundreds. As for illegally trading rituals, that I deny. But I certainly have acquired GLO rituals and related materials for my personal use and study. And I would never reveal any of it publicly out of respect for the individual groups and the greek system as a whole. Nothing illegal about that.
wptw

As a ritual advisor for my chapter and a devoted alumna of my GLO, I am absolutely sickened by the fact that you have Greek organizations' secret rituals in your possession. The very idea of someone other than a Delta Zeta being in possession of our sacred ritual is completely revolting to me, and my stomach churns at the thought of someone going through our secret ceremonies as if they are nothing more than interesting reading material -- a way to kill time before dinner.

Just because you say you would never reveal the rituals publicly, wptw, does not justify the fact that you have them in your possession and are "studying" them for "personal use." They aren't public textbooks, and they are certainly not intended to be Cliff Notes for your own personal course in GLO history!

Greek rituals contain a wealth of meaning for their individual organizations, but for you they serve only as a means of satisfying selfish curiosity.

I will not be making any further comments on this issue, and I won't be returning to this thread. I've reached my limit as to the amount of disrespect I can tolerate this week.

SAEalumnus · #24 02-21-2002, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wptw
God morning all,

SAEalum: While very interesting, what you've posted is not a legal lease agreement. It is simply a statement of GLO policy, just as I thought. You may or may not have signed this, but it still does not constitute a lease agremeent which would be binding upon your heirs or assigns.

Can anyone post the text from one of these "lifelong lease agreements", or are they all just a statement of GLO policy as SAEalum posted?

wptw

My badge was the property of SAE the day I was initiated. My badge is still the property of SAE today. My badge will remain the property of SAE when I die. The day after I die, my badge will still be the property of SAE, and the next day, and the next day, and the next day, ad nauseum. I haven't purchased it from SAE because SAE hasn't sold it to me. SAE loaned it to me, which means, of course, that I have it on a

lease. Profound, no?

I certainly don't expect someone who's in the habit of trading/buying/selling badges on ebay and/or elsewhere to agree with me. Obviously they feel their actions are justified, or else they know they're wrong and are just plain malicious. Either way, there's probably not much, if anything, I can personally do about it. You see, it doesn't matter whether I personally try to sell "my" badge or whether someone else (eg. inheriter of my estate) tries to do the same. Either way, the badge being sold is still the property of the Fraternity, not mine, nor anyone else's. Selling someone else's property, especially without authorization (you're not an official jeweler last time I checked), is .... what's that word again? ... oh yeah, ILLEGAL !!! . What more do you need to know?

wptw · #25 02-21-2002, 05:49 PM

Well dzrose, just in case you decide to come back...

Quote:

Greek rituals contain a wealth of meaning for their individual organizations, but for you they serve only as a means of satisfying selfish curiosity.

You could not be more wrong. You could try. But you would not be successful.

This has been a serious field of study for me for a long time, and I am by no means the first to do this. You may know that several GLOs voluntarily participated in a similar research project in the 1970s by contributing their ritual manuals to a graduate student at the University of Mississippi.

Once again your collective feathers are so ruffled that you miss what's important. There are a handful of people who study rituals for their historical significance and would never dream of mishandling this information (some of them are regulars on Greekchat I might add), and then there are hundreds of people scouring the planet every day for any ritual secrets that they can publicly expose. And who do you direct your anger toward? Ridiculous!

I didn't get on this board and start crowing about having rituals. Someone else brought it up because he mistakenly thought that "outing" me would scare me away. Anyway, I won't spend the time to argue it with you since it won't change your mind. You made your mind up about me weeks ago during the badge arguments.

wptw

wptw · #26 02-21-2002, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Selling someone else's property, especially without authorization (you're not an official jeweler last time I checked), is .... what's that word again? ... oh yeah, ILLEGAL !!! . What more do you need to know?

What I need to know is the same as what I needed to know yesterday...

Where is this lease agreement I keep hearing about? So far no one has posted it. Do they exist or not?

wptw

FuzzieAlum · #27 02-21-2002, 06:00 PM

Quote:

I saw this on EBay this morning and laughed so hard I almost peed. Are there really jackasses out there stupid enough to buy 3000 bucks worth of pins...there aren't even that many in the collection. His comments on everything make me think he gets A LOT of complaints on other auctions.

I thought the comment about "they're sororities, not fraternities" was particularly funny. Most women's groups are fraternities by name because they were created before the word "sorority" was coined. So, yeah, a group's legal name is it's name, whether he likes it or not ... but who the heck cares? I don't know of any Greek woman who gets offended by the term "sorority."

SAEalumnus · #28 02-21-2002, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by brooklineu

I saw this on EBay this morning and laughed so hard I almost peed. Are there really jackasses out there stupid enough to buy 3000 bucks worth of pins...there aren't even that many in the collection. His comments on everything make me think he gets A LOT of complaints on other auctions.

Apparently no one stupid enough has found the auction yet. Zero bids so far (at least as of the time this post is made). You have to wonder though... when you were initiated, how much did you really have to pay for your badge (or to replace it if you lose it)? The minimum bid would be an average of $138.89 per badge and if you "buy it now for only $6K", you'd be paying $333.33 per badge. I can get a 10K gold badge for myself for less than a fourth of that! Good grief!

AchtungBaby80 · #29 02-21-2002, 06:18 PM

My sorority (Delta Zeta) has rules similar to your fraternity, SAEactive--our badges are the property of the sorority and are loaned to us for our lifetime use as members in good standing. When you sign your membership card, is that not an agreement to abide by the rules of the organization (one of which is that badges are property of the sorority)? For us, I think it is.

I am not a Pi Phi, and my badge has my initials, the date I was initiated, and the chapter I was initiated in engraved on the back.

I used to think that having a secret ritual was sort of hokey, but a lot of things have happened recently that made me realise how much I value my sorority and now it makes me a little angry to hear that someone who is not my sister might have read our ritual. I don't care if you are just using them for scholarly purposes, to me that seems a little disrespectful. Well, more than a little, actually. It seems like a fellow Greek should understand that.

And to everyone, it's no use arguing on this topic. There's always going to be some cheeky smart-arse out there who has to have the last word and dismisses valid points anyone else makes in order to justify the things they do. We'll never be able to give them enough "proof" that our badges shouldn't be treated like *collectibles*.

Optimist Prime · #30 02-21-2002, 06:19 PM

our $75 initation fee includes badge, shingle, and membership card.