Chronicle of Higer Education Greek discussion

[LexiKD]

Do you really expect a NPC group to be the first to accept anyone who was not the norm. UGA and school's similiar pride themselves on a certian type member and I doubt they would be willing to admit just anyone.

If a chapter has all blondes, no one protests, isn't it all about what image a chapter portrays?

I think private organization should have a right to do as they choose, but that's not what is allowed at State funded schools.

It really depends on the campus and the region of the country. But my school isn't anything that I would say is intergrated. Yes NPC groups have lots of different members, but not all.

But when it comes down to black and white what does that mean? What is white, aren't we all mixed anyway, we aren't talking about Daughters of the American Revolution here!

If white and black sororities want to stay that way, then go ahead, if you want to be in either, go to a school that you can get into whatever organization you want.

It is the same discussion with service groups mixing socially with social groups. WE all joined different organizations, and yeah that may mean we do different things, including membership selection!

[AlphaChiGirl]

Uhhh...ecukd...in theory private organizations should be able to select what sort of members they want to project their "image", but if it is proven that the sororities at UA DID discriminate against Melody Twiley on solely racial grounds, the chapters CAN GET in trouble. The organizations may be "private", but they are non-profit, and proof of racial discrimination is grounds for loss of non-profit status.

[SoTrue1920]

I should think that her attitude is one mirrored by a LOT of young women who have no experience with the "traditional" greek system other than what they see from the outside. She saw women who, like herself, were young, pretty, high achievers who came from middle class to upper-middle class surroundings. There is no other reason for a naive 17 year old girl to think that a sorority wouldn't be all over her if she thought she was just like the other women -- her race excepted.

She's 17. She's a child. She's naive. Cut her some slack. The larger issue is not what she said (one statement out of a whole article? C'mon people..), but that in the year 2001 the U of A system has not integrated.

I had a similar experience at GSU when I was an undergraduate student. I had lots of friends from high school who were white. When they went through sorority rush, I went through with them. I had higher grades, better service records, etc. than quite a few of my friends, yet they all got bids. One of the 'traditional' sororities invited me to the second round of their parties because they remembered my name, and remembered that I was nice, but couldn't remember what I looked like. When someone told them that I was black, they rescinded my invitation.

The argument made about reverse racism doesn't hold water. Generally if a white person joins a traditionally black sorority, it is because that person has the perception that NPHC organizations are more service oriented/businesslike and wants to associate with other like-minded individuals. While I'm not going to sit here and say that some folks in the NPHC have issue with integrating our organizations, most of the NPHC organizations adopted non-discrimination clauses back in the 1940s (Iota Phi Theta excepting, because they weren't founded until 1963). As a person who's seen the system from both sides, I can say that any non-black person wanting to join an NPHC organization may be regarded with suspicion, or as a novelty, but I can't think of an instance where they were flat-out denied membership because of their color. I can't think of an instance where a member of an NPHC organization would say something as inane as "If it came down to a vote to intergrate, I'd probably say no -- not because I'm not a racist, but because I don't want to take the first step."

What is at stake here is the same thing that is at stake when people talk about "others" moving into their neighborhoods and driving down their property values. I asked a (white) friend of mine why they didn't have any African American members of her sorority and she told me that it was because they were worried that their standing on campus would be diminished, and that they were worried that the (white) fraternities wouldn't want to 'swap' with them any longer.

Try to rationalize it all you want. Try to divert the attention away from the real issue by focusing on a poor choice of words made by a naive 17 year old girl. Most of us know what's going on. If you're willing to risk the history and continuation of your organization by keeping it melanin-free, then that's your choice. I just think it's beyond sad.

Originally posted by 33girl:
Re Alabama, while I am not disregarding the racial factor, I'll tell you this much: I wouldn't give a bid to ANYONE who says things like "I expected sororities to jump all over me."

Confidence is one thing; arrogance is another.

[LexiKD]

P.S. I didn't say my system was like that, I said my school isn't that bad. My chapter has tons of different races.

I was merely backing up what the reasoning may be! What I'm saying is, discrimination happens all the time, job interviews, grad school interview and such. You cannot change everything to fit everyone's needs.

[This message has been edited by ecukd (edited June 08, 2001).]

[33girl]

SoTrue1920 -

I understand what you're trying to say. I'll gladly say that there's a big chance she didn't get in because she's black, if you'll say there's also a big chance she didn't get in cause, well, she's a jerk. There are a lot of people who look great on paper but in person are like nails on a blackboard. I don't care if someone's valedictorian, homecoming queen or volunteer of the year, I'm not going to give them a bid if they irritate the @#%& out of me.

Maybe during next year's rush, this woman or another black person will integrate the UA system, which I agree is long overdue. But even if that happens, it won't be truly integrated until black members pledge - and no one notices.

[SoTrue1920]

I'm not willing to say she's a jerk, because I have a feeling that even though this young lady was naive, that she was smart enough not to make the comment about greeks being 'all over her' while she was going through rush. Of course, now that people are making a mountain out of that molehill, her chances for being in ANY greek organization at U of A are slim to none.

She was upset and she was talking to a reporter. How many of us have said things we've later regretted without it being an indictment of our character?

Originally posted by 33girl:
SoTrue1920 -

I understand what you're trying to say. I'll gladly say that there's a big chance she didn't get in because she's black, if you'll say there's also a big chance she didn't get in cause, well, she's a jerk. There are a lot of people who look great on paper but in person are like nails on a blackboard. I don't care if someone's valedictorian, homecoming queen or volunteer of the year, I'm not going to give them a bid if they irritate the @#%& out of me.

Maybe during next year's rush, this woman or another black person will integrate the UA system, which I agree is long overdue. But even if that happens, it won't be truly integrated until black members pledge - and no one notices.

[lastpoetnsite]

much respect...

when i read the article the comment that the young girl made was not unlike ones that i have heard from 17-19 year olds *and some a little older* who are members of the "black elite". Here is a young woman who's parents are wealthy enough to give her a jeep as avalentines day present so she is probably spoiled as all hell and has every reason in the world to believe that she would not be "overlooked" by anyone. Frankly her "credentials" has told her that she is probably one of the best if not the best to be accepted.

I don't think that concentrating on her comment is really critiquing(sp?) the article. The main point is that she was snubbed. Now maybe it wasn't race. Maybe she her attitude left something to be desired like the mixed girl in another posters reply.
But the reality is in what later on another person said in the article which incidentally most of you didn't even try and validate or put down.

The "gentleman" said:
"If I had to vote right now on whether to bring a black member into my fraternity, I'd probably vote no," Mr. Booth says. "But it is not that I am a racist. It is just that white fraternities and black fraternities have always been separate, and nobody wants to be the first to change that." (Ryan Booth, a member of Alabama's Delta Kappa Epsilon house)

The reality is the "attitude" that the young woman expressed is one that is held widely by those who are members of "elite" families and ones with connections to organizations. Recognize ladies and gentleman that her "attitude" was probably scrutinized because she was a black woman. There is no way on God's/Allah's green earth that you can tell me she was the only one who didn't have that attitude.

The fact of the matter is...race did matter in this case. But should we force organizations to "change"? Well if you are on a college campus and renting your house from a state funded university then why should I as a tax payer pay for your discrimination? hmmm...I shouldn't.

We can't ask people to use their moral compasses. This is the year 2001 and there have been no black people to "integrate" the white greek system. I find that to be fascinating. But of course we like to quickly run and say "i'm not a racist...but..." No these young women who denied her a bid to her highest or her lowest choices whatever...may not have been personally racist. But there is definitely a hint of systematic racism. Think about that for a moment.

Peace

*sorry this was so long*

p.s. HEY IDEAL08...I'M OVER HERE! *waving*

[kappagirl00]

And before anyone else accuses the writer of taking a cheap shot at greeks because of the jeep comment, it's kind of true. There's a chapter on my campus where you won't get past the first round unless one of the sisters happens to know you're rich (yes i know this is true and not a myth, they asked me and my friends very offensive questions during rush in an attemt to "get a feel" of our wealth.) I don't think that girl thought she would get in because of her jeep, rather, she was just saying she thought she'd survive the "money" cut because of it. She thought that if she did get cut, it wouldn't be because of money or social class. I don't know anything about that school but we have to acknowledge chapters like that exist.

If she was cut because of race, well, that sucks. But there are plenty of girls who get screwed over during rush for dumb reasons, reasons that they can't use as grounds for attracting media attention. I'm not condoning any sort of discrimination during rush, not at all. But the fact is, if this girl was white and overweight, or blackballed by an untrue rumor, and found herself cut from all the sororities, would people really listen?

[Charnetta]

I'm a lifetime member of the distinguished Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, an organization that was created to change and benefit individuals rather than society. D.S.T. does not and will never ever refuse anyone of their race. We have well over 200,000 members from U.S.A, Japan, Africa all over the world, now I can only speak on behalf of my dynamic organization. But please don't judge all historically black sororities and fraternities because of one person who made an ignorant comment. My organization was founded at a time when education was seen impractical for blacks. Blacks were stereotyped as "ignorant" and beneath the white race and still we continue to climb the ladder of success breaking barriers of all kinds no matter how difficult the obstacle may be. Unfortunatly we're still climbing the ladder of INJUSTICE.

Originally posted by UNFSigmaChi:
Why should you be forced to accept someone you don't want in your organization??? I don't think it was race related personally but if it was that is not cool. There was something similar that happened here with PHC. This girl got turned down by every sorority on campus and said it was racial. Then when the media started to get involved an older sister who was black said it wasn't and nothing happened after that. But I do have a question. How come black fraternities and sororities refuse white people from joining their organizations? I asked some friends of mine who are Kappa's and said white people wouldn't understand. Why?

[sigmagrrl]

I was reading thru some of the posts regarding this issue on the Chronicle of Higher Education's website, and here is something that I am just outraged about:

"The truth is that these organizations tend to attract students who all ready have lower levels of moral reasoning (MJI standards) than those peers who choose not to join. "

This opinion comes from a resident life advisor!! ACK!! Greek Life will not survive on a campus where the administration has this attitude towards us! WHAT A GROTESQUE GENERALIZATION!

[sigmagrrl]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ecukd:

If a chapter has all blondes, no one protests, isn't it all about what image a chapter portrays?

If there were such a chapter, it would portray to the outside world that these women are choosing to keep their chapter in some sort of pure, homogenic state and they would not last very long! On a side note, would they have to prove they are NATURAL blondes? Just a thought...


But when it comes down to black and white what does that mean? What is white, aren't we all mixed anyway, we aren't talking about Daughters of the American Revolution here!

We all know what we are talking about...We don't all look alike, race, as much as people try to ignore it, is probably the 1st or 2nd thing people notice...

If white and black sororities want to stay that way, then go ahead, if you want to be in either, go to a school that you can get into whatever organization you want.

The point is, you should be able to join the organization you want at ANY school. How the hell am I supposed to know that West Bob U's sororities are less likely to let minorities in than North Bob U? We don't go to school just to join a sorority, we go depending on our selected major and quality of the school...That's a silly suggestion, if I ever heard one!

[This message has been edited by sigmagrrl (edited June 09, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by sigmagrrl (edited June 09, 2001).]

[LexiKD]

What I'm trying to say is, sometimes it's better to deal with what you are able to do and change things within. There are chapters on my campus that I would have never fit in EVER, so I wouldn't even dare going to a rush party of theirs. Like an ALL blonde chapter...it does happen and they are strong.

I did't say it was PC, but it's my opinion. My chapter is not like that, but some chaptes are. My chapter has broken down MANY walls and continue to work on being awesome at ECU, but they are babies in our system.

It's not all about race either, discrimination comes in many forms. There are many women that simply do not recive a bid for many other discriminating reasons and no one says anything about that, why is that not as important? There are many campuses that I wouldn't get a bid b/c I'm first generation Greek, is that not the same?

I cannot say anything about this young woman, I never say her or spoke to her, like 33 said it could have been her personality and b/c of her race it was noticed more, but what about the other PNMs that didn't get a bid b/c they were too shy, too unkept, or too big? I don't see an article about those women and that happens all the time.

I don't think it's OK, but when you talk about discrimination, it happens all the time, in all areas of life. Not everyting is perfect so, before everyone gets on their high horse, look at the system we all Greeks perpetuate. And don't kid yourself, there are times you can pick Potential New Members out and know they will not get in anywhere, it happens, if everyone could get in, what is the point?

I'm glad I learned this lesson as soon as I did. I was a totally different person when I was a freshman, but I know that there are many criteria that peolpe look at first glance and that's how it is. First impressions are everything and how someone presents themselves has a lot to do with many things. It's the same at Recruitment.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it, sorry if you do not agree, but I have said my peace.

------------------
Lexi

Ok. I am an alumna of the Greek system at Alabama. (Actually, I am an alumna of the house Ms. Twilley was standing in front of in the picture in the Chronicle article.) I can only speak for my sorority, but I will tell you that the fact that she expected to get into the house she wanted because her daddy bought her a Jeep Grand Cherokee, then she has a problem understanding the Greek system at Alabama. In the four years I was there, no one got into my house because of the car she drove. If that was the case, I probably wouldn't have gotten in either. Close to a thousand girls Rush every year to get into one of the 15 or so sororities at Alabama. A lot of girls don't get in. Unless you were there in each house when Ms. Twilley went through, please don't assume that she didn't get in because she's African-American. Every house has different standards. Maybe some of those standards are racist, I don't know. Noone except the people sitting in the rooms at membership meetings during rush can tell you why she didn't get in. I can tell you that the Pi Beta Phi house she stood in front of did NOT drop her because she is black.

I wish her the best of luck and hope that she gets at the top of the bid list next year for whatever house she wants. But please do not judge my school, my sorority sisters, or my state based on what a couple of drunk fraternity boys said in that article. If you go looking for a drunk college kid to make an offensive statement, then yes you can find one I'm sure very easily in Gallettes. Yes, unfortunately some people were raised with the same attitudes that led to the infamous stand in the schoolhouse door. But most of the people at Alabama are good people and I'm sorry this reporter couldn't find some of them to talk to. Maybe if he looked somewhere besides the Strip he could have found someone who could sound a little bit intelligent.

[lastpoetnsite]

much respect...

we all know that the young lady is not going to get a bid after this incident. well actually on the other hand maybe someone will extend her a bid so that there will be no further incidences. Some house that she was really interested in will eagerly extend her a bid so they can be the first to say..."look at us...we're not racist...see." But hey its doubtful.

as much as i'd like to believe that the gentleman in the article was inarticulate about the "feelings" of the fraternities and sororities at Alabama because of alcohol i can only shake my head and say...give me a break. at the very least the drunken "frat boy" probably expressed sentiments that he would have only expressed when drunk. i would give the reporter more credit that he probably attempted to find someone to "discuss" the greek system but was stonewalled. as we all know in most greek systems be they white or black there is something to be said for DISCRETION...in this time of diversity initiatives do you think anyone sober would have the balls to say, "yeah we aren't interested in anyone who isn't white." ummm...no.

and yes it is true that no one was there but the women in the houses and the young woman when she was going through rush. and ultimately when the bid vote was put on the table no one was there but the women in the houses. and yet, we all want to make excuses because we don't want to see the obvious discrimination.

"oh no my not integrated sorority would never discriminate" many of you are ready to run and say...and yet why is it in 2001 there are no blacks in the white greek system in Alabaman and yes, in other places in this nation. and yes, wine & blue *no disrespect* but i, like many other people of color, still look at Alabama the state as one of the most resistant to people of color. and until all people work to change this...that opinion is not going to change. and this "greek system debacle" is just a small symptom of a larger statewide and admittedly nationwide problem.

on other issues of discrimination because a young woman is overweight, too shy, too unkempt etc. etc. i think those are despicable(sp?) too. and possibly a young woman who experienced losing a bid because of the above examples would not have gotten the press that this young woman did. which in my opinion would be unfortunate because that would say something even more dastardly about a system that promotes sisterhood and service. and yet at the same time is extremely superficial.

the young woman, what i would consider to be a BAP (Black American Princess), had no reason not to believe that she wouldn't be accepted. Money, confidence, GPA, Pride, lineage all told her the same thing...you are the best! and in many ways she was probably "better" than her counterparts who did receive bids. She will have to take her lumps with the rest of the women that didn't receive bids...but only her lumps are served with a side of reality. You see...those other girls who for example didn't receive bids because they were shy, overweight, unkempt could change those things...but her skin color will stay the same.

i would describe the lesson that she learned as being much like the "lesson" that Tiger Woods learned when he won his first PGA Masters Tournament and a fellow golfer, Fuzzy Zoeller "jokingly" said "that little boy" better not order collard greens and fried chicken at the Champions Dinner. He learned that he could call himself Cablasian if he wanted to...but in many eyes he was still black. And she learned that she may have been the best but her skin color spoke volumes.

Peace

[AlphaChiGirl]

I feel like the central issue is being ignored. The WRITER was the only person who mentioned the girl's car...she didn't, and she probably didn't expect to get a bid based on car ownership, as someone assumed. I feel like posters here are focusing on her statements and statements made by the author, to avoid the central issue: a woman who, on face value alone, should have been able to progress farther in Rush, was not even extended an invitation to the Second Round. She just happens to be black.

For whomever suggested that if someone wanted to join a sorority which primarily consisted of members of one race, they should go to another school--what sort of mess is that?

I don't plan on replying to this post anymore. It's a sad, embarassing situation if this woman was refused a bid from ANY of the sororities on UAs campus for the SOLE REASON of race.