The Confederate Flag

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

For clarity's sake:

This form of the swastika



Not this form of the swastika




/turning into MysticCat

Thanks for clarifying but given the context of the conversation if someone couldn't differentiate the type of swastika I was referring to they should probably log off

Someone who sports the Confederate Flag is not automatically "trouble." Such labeling of people is problematic because it is above and beyond the labeling of the items themselves. It is different than a gang symbol and a Nazi symbol.

I was speaking very generally there. Like I said, I don't have a dog in this fight. I don't see the Confederate flag as something of pride nor oppression... I'm quite indifferent to the topic. I personally don't think that they are trouble, nor do I hold the Confederate flag in the same regard as Nazi or gang symbolism. Some on the other hand (as evident from some of the replies to this thread) do though.

And only an idiot would sport a gang symbol on his bumper, if that's true. The police better be watching him.

It's quite true. It's how they identify themselves fellow gang members or to rival gang members that a certain car's load or occupants is being protected. It's not the "typical" gang signs that are displayed but rather more innocuous symbols such as





And yes, law enforcement is aware of that these symbols are being used.

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally Posted by Optimus Prime

Sure, she has a right to fly it. I wouldn't. It's always nice to be respectful of your neighbors and compromise. They built the fence, leave the flag where it is; no need to raise it higher.

This.

In my neighborhood we're dealing with this issue (not flag flying but one neighbor doing something that is upsetting the entire neighborhood). Instead of flying a confederate flag, this d-bag has a big sign in his front yard that says " Two retards live next door" with an arrow pointing to his neighbor (and yes, infact two mentally handicapped people do indeed live next door to him, including one with cerebral palsy). As much as everyone would love to (a) kick his @ss and (b) tear it down, we can’t do anything about it legally. The sign doesn't break any laws unfortunately.


Back to the flag - born and raised in Mississippi and I can't stand to look at it and what it represents. However, I don't plan on throwing any rocks at it though. If that's how some chose to display their "southern pride" whatever floats their boat.

[katydidKD]

Yeah, I was just going to say before others did, up here (in the North) it means you are racist. Flying that above the mason-dixon would make you a pariah.

[SWTXBelle]

Happy to meet you, winter. Hope you can regard this as a positive encounter.
I am a non-racist bearer of C.S.A. flags - although I favor the 3rd National myself.
One of my many C.S.A. ancestors was Captain David Cartwright Jackson, but I can show you my U.D.C. card if need be, 33girl.
I was a featured speaker at a Sam Davis Camp this summer - my topic was southern linguistics. It's not always just about The War - in many, many cases - including the many learned (as in university professors and PhDs I know through SCV, UDC and LOS) ladies and gentlemen I know in heritage groups - it is also about southern culture.(Not an oxymoron) After 4 years in New Jersey I can say that most above the Mason-Dixon don't get that - hence the whole "Why don't they just get over it" thing, which is insulting in its idiocy. It's right up there with "Well, at least we won The War!" which always made me wonder why those New Jersyians couldn't come up with anything in defense of themselves other than an event which occurred over 100 years ago.
Other than that, I don't want to disrupt the southern hate-in developing here, and I am going to resolve to stay away from news and politics. She flew the flag, the neighbors didn't like it, they built the fences, she didn't like it, she made sure she could continue to exercise her free speech rights. I don't get why this is "news". Happy stereotyping.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Happy to meet you, winter. Hope you can regard this as a positive encounter.
I am a non-racist bearer of C.S.A. flags - although I favor the 3rd National myself.
One of my many C.S.A. ancestors was Captain David Cartwright Jackson, but I can show you my U.D.C. card if need be, 33girl.
I was a featured speaker at a Sam Davis Camp this summer - my topic was southern linguistics. It's not always just about The War - in many, many cases - including the many learned (as in university professors and PhDs I know through SCV, UDC and LOS) ladies and gentlemen I know in heritage groups - it is also about southern culture.(Not an oxymoron) After 4 years in New Jersey I can say that most above the Mason-Dixon don't get that - hence the whole "Why don't they just get over it" thing, which is insulting in its idiocy. It's right up there with "Well, at least we won The War!" which always made me wonder why those New Jersyians couldn't come up with anything in defense of themselves other than an event which occurred over 100 years ago.

Co-sign all of this, too.

Other than that, I don't want to disrupt the southern hate-in developing here, and I am going to resolve to stay away from news and politics. She flew the flag, the neighbors didn't like it, they built the fences, she didn't like it, she made sure she could continue to exercise her free speech rights. I don't get why this is "news". Happy stereotyping.

I agree about the stereotyping of Southerners. My disagreement has to do with the free speech rights part. No doubt, she has that right. But for the life of me, I don't understand why someone would choose to do that in a way that they know (or certainly should know) will be deeply and understandably offensive to their neighbors.

If it's important to me, I'll find a way a to express myself that doesn't simultaneously offend those who live around me -- such as by occasionally flying a flag (I fly different kinds of flags all the time) that carries the same (or more) meaning for me but that doesn't come with all of the baggage and connotations of "the Confederate flag."

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I agree about the stereotyping of Southerners. My disagreement has to do with the free speech rights part. No doubt, she has that right. But for the life of me, I don't understand why someone would choose to do that in a way that they know (or certainly should know) will be deeply and understandably offensive to their neighbors.

If it's important to me, I'll find a way a to express myself that doesn't simultaneously offend those who live around me -- such as by occasionally flying a flag (I fly different kinds of flags all the time) that carries the same (or more) meaning for me but that doesn't come with all of the baggage and connotations of "the Confederate flag."

That neighbor was being an asshole.

I have much love for the Black Panther Party. I wouldn't display flags and symbols for the BPP in our cul de sac community in which we are the only Black family. Those white neighbors do not want to hear about the history and the relevance of the BPP. Those white neighbors would contact HOA and would stop having cul de sac cookouts. LOL.

Power to the People.

[IndianaSigKap]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

My disagreement has to do with the free speech rights part. No doubt, she has that right. But for the life of me, I don't understand why someone would choose to do that in a way that they know (or certainly should know) will be deeply and understandably offensive to their neighbors.

If it's important to me, I'll find a way a to express myself that doesn't simultaneously offend those who live around me -- such as by occasionally flying a flag (I fly different kinds of flags all the time) that carries the same (or more) meaning for me but that doesn't come with all of the baggage and connotations of "the Confederate flag."

Last year one of my students wrote an column in our school paper about the same time that Terry Jones was calling for the quoran burning writing that even though one may have the right to do something, does that mean that it's morally or ethically correct? He was writing about the "just because you can do something, does it mean you should" principle. He is very well read and writes eloquently, and comes from an interesting background: Dad is a presbyterian pastor, Mom is a social worker and step mom is a PhD who is a retired professor at a theological seminary. His column definitely started some good dialog at school. This story reminded me of his column and some of the discussions the kids had surrounding the Jones incident.

[33girl]

I never think "why don't they get over it" when I see it here. I think "that person hates black people and thinks this is more socially acceptable than posting a sign that reads 'n*****s please die'." Unfortunately, SWTXBelle, for the people like you who DO fly it for other reasons, they have been eclipsed by the racists. I'm not sure how rural your town is, but winter's right - in a lot of areas, it's just a kind of shorthand. (Rather like the rainbow flags on gay-friendly establishments.)

[Senusret I]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I never think "why don't they get over it" when I see it here. I think "that person hates black people and thinks this is more socially acceptable than posting a sign that reads 'n*****s please die'." Unfortunately, SWTXBelle, for the people like you who DO fly it for other reasons, they have been eclipsed by the racists. I'm not sure how rural your town is, but winter's right - in a lot of areas, it's just a kind of shorthand. (Rather like the rainbow flags on gay-friendly establishments.)

Yup.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I have much love for the Black Panther Party. I wouldn't display flags and symbols for the BPP in our cul de sac community in which we are the only Black family. Those white neighbors do not want to hear about the history and the relevance of the BPP. Those white neighbors would contact HOA and would stop having cul de sac cookouts. LOL.

Power to the People.

Oh don't even get me started on HOAs! I detest them.

And yes, I'm a nerd --please see my location. (And when I feel the need to fly something "Southern," I use the old state flag. Hardly anybody has a clue what it is.)

Meanwhile, major props to honeychile for using the word "vexillology."

[honeychile]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Happy to meet you, winter. Hope you can regard this as a positive encounter.
I am a non-racist bearer of C.S.A. flags - although I favor the 3rd National myself.
One of my many C.S.A. ancestors was Captain David Cartwright Jackson, but I can show you my U.D.C. card if need be, 33girl.
I was a featured speaker at a Sam Davis Camp this summer - my topic was southern linguistics. It's not always just about The War - in many, many cases - including the many learned (as in university professors and PhDs I know through SCV, UDC and LOS) ladies and gentlemen I know in heritage groups - it is also about southern culture.(Not an oxymoron) After 4 years in New Jersey I can say that most above the Mason-Dixon don't get that - hence the whole "Why don't they just get over it" thing, which is insulting in its idiocy. It's right up there with "Well, at least we won The War!" which always made me wonder why those New Jersyians couldn't come up with anything in defense of themselves other than an event which occurred over 100 years ago.
Other than that, I don't want to disrupt the southern hate-in developing here, and I am going to resolve to stay away from news and politics. She flew the flag, the neighbors didn't like it, they built the fences, she didn't like it, she made sure she could continue to exercise her free speech rights. I don't get why this is "news". Happy stereotyping.

Also co-signing, along with MysticCat's questioning why one would purposely do something that would cause hate among the neighbors.

These discussions are always interesting to me, growing up north of the Mason-Dixon line with a mother named Dixie Lee. I couldn't begin to count how many people have asked me what her real name was, or why was she named Dixie Lee - especially since I have biracial foster cousins. To my knowledge, no ancestors of mine ever owned any slaves. I have never flown a Confederate Flag, except while doing a historical retrospective of vexillology in America.

When my mother & I were invited to our first event with the United Daughters of the Confederacy, we had mixed emotions. We finally decided that, unless we saw the "why". This answers the question:


"I am a Daughter of the Confederacy because I can no more help being a Daughter of the Confederacy than I can help being an American, and I feel that I was greatly favored by inheriting a birthright for both."

Written by Mary Nowlin Moon (Mrs. John)

That said, while I'm proud of all of my ancestors, Northern, Southern or whatever, I wouldn't fly the flag if I knew it caused grief. I have some little ones, souvenirs of the above-mentioned project, but they stay inside (next to a funny photo of Tyra!). Isn't there a biblical verse about not causing your neighbor to sin?

[Cen1aur 1963]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

- it is also about southern culture.

But the culture that they are celebrating had me oppressed, without rights, and as property. That's some bullshit. I know it, you know it, and everybody else on here knows it.

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

After 4 years in New Jersey I can say that most above the Mason-Dixon don't get that - hence the whole "Why don't they just get over it" thing, which is insulting in its idiocy. It's right up there with "Well, at least we won The War!" which always made me wonder why those New Jersyians couldn't come up with anything in defense of themselves other than an event which occurred over 100 years ago.

I've lived in the North (specifically the Northeast) for 30 years and can probably count on one hand the number of times I've heard "At least we won the war" or "get over it." It's just not that big a deal up here. That includes having gone to college with a number of Southerners, and having family members from Mississippi come up North to visit. You must have lived in a particularly (and oddly) sensitive pocket of NJ.

Other than that I think DrPhil and MysticCat have covered it pretty well, so I don't know if I have anything to add. It's a complex issue, and when you have a symbol that has such strong, yet directly opposite meanings for different people, you're going to have conflict.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

I've lived in the North (specifically the Northeast) for 30 years and can probably count on one hand the number of times I've heard "At least we won the war" or "get over it." It's just not that big a deal up here. That includes having gone to college with a number of Southerners, and having family members from Mississippi come up North to visit. You must have lived in a particularly (and oddly) sensitive pocket of NJ.

Agreed. I grew up in the South but I've lived my entire adult life in the Northeast and I've never heard anything like that unless a Southerner is talking about how much better the South is than the NE--while they're in the Northeast. I've lived in both and neither is better, really. I will say that I've seen worse cases of segregation in the Northeast. In most Southern cities, there's not a "little Italy" or a "Koreatown" the way that there are in Northern cities.

I've noticed that people tend to romanticize the South as this genteel paradise that most Southern natives, particularly those of color or who could be "outsiders" in any way, tend to roll our eyes at. I've even noticed this on GC, where people who've never lived in the South go into a conniption fit when it's SEC rush time.

I think a lot of people feel that the South is this wonderful place where manners never died; there are, conversely, people who feel that the South is a terrible place where Jim Crow never died. The truth lies somewhere in between. The Confederate flag argument is one of the places where this division is more obvious.

[katydidKD]

I hate HOA's too! But my mother loves it. I think its an encroachment on your personal property rights, but you do choose to live in a HOA community. Blech.