6-year-old expelled over Cub Scout utensil

[texas*princess]

that's messed up!

[FSUZeta]

last night the school board ruled that the little boy did not have to attend reform school and that they were going to amend that rule.

[Kevin]

I had to memorize the Matthews v. Eldridge Balancing Test for 14th and 5th Amendment Due Process analysis. I imagine that every law student in the country has to do this at some point.

1. Private interest effected by an official action taken by a government agency, official, or non-governmental entity (company) acting as a governmental agency
2. The risk of some deprivation being erroneously inflicted on respondent, through the process used or if no process is used.
3. The government’s interest in a specific outcome.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Slighty off topic, but I hope of the GC legal minds can answer. I'm ashamed to admit I don't know the constitution as well as i should. What is the difference between the 14th and 5th amendments. I thought the 5th amendment guaranteed due process, but then the 14th does the same thing. Am I missing something?

[DaemonSeid]

OK...so it' shut the fuck up now huh?

Try taking your own advice and try debating a subject without

A) trying to find a way to work the racial angle into EACH topic you commenton....really, it's tired.

or

B) thinking that 'they' are talking about 'you' or 'you people'.


That's tired too and speaking of...DS is out.

Good night

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Yeah, the point is that mainstream America didn't care until it was middle class white kids. The nonwhite and/or poor kids can kill themselves all they want to.

Pretty much...

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

OK...so it' shut the fuck up now huh?

Try taking your own advice and try debating a subject without

A) trying to find a way to work the racial angle into EACH topic you commenton....really, it's tired.

or

B) thinking that 'they' are talking about 'you' or 'you people'.


That's tired too and speaking of...DS is out.

Good night




Pretty much...

First of all, every subject that has been debated has not involved race. Don't take a few instances and try to apply it across the board.

Second, as I said, the ARTICLE STATED THE VERY SAME THING THAT I SAID ABOUT AVOIDING DISCRIMINATORY PRACTICES. And since this article is referring to the incident we are discussing, naturally this aspect would be discussed as well.

At this point, for you or anyone else to blatantly ignore that issue is just an attempt to be contrary for the heck of it. Try operating in the real world and real life for once instead of operating in fairy tale land. Amusing to me how a majority of people who want to tell the school system how to handle discipline tend to have no real experience with such matters and speak out of some ridiculous notions of context. Work as a teacher in a "bad" area for a WEEK. See how bad you think the zero tolerance policy is at that point.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

First of all, every subject that has been debated has not involved race. Don't take a few instances and try to apply it across the board.

Second, as I said, the ARTICLE STATED THE VERY SAME THING THAT I SAID ABOUT AVOIDING DISCRIMINATORY PRACTICES. And since this article is referring to the incident we are discussing, naturally this aspect would be discussed as well.

At this point, for you or anyone else to blatantly ignore that issue is just an attempt to be contrary for the heck of it. Try operating in the real world and real life for once instead of operating in fairy tale land. Amusing to me how a majority of people who want to tell the school system how to handle discipline tend to have no real experience with such matters and speak out of some ridiculous notions of context. Work as a teacher in a "bad" area for a WEEK. See how bad you think the zero tolerance policy is at that point.

I hate to tell you this but at one (13 years ago really but that's here nor there) time I taught what some people considered to be the worst bunch of
5th graders a first year teacher could have and it was far from.

Give them some structure, make a good rapport with the parents and the classes I had were some of the best behaved students...oh yeah and SMART TOO.

Taught at that school for a few years.

Most of these kids lived in MY OWN area of East Baltimore.

So I think I know what the hell I am talking about.

so...why don't you STFU, watch your step coming off of your soapbox and don't trip ofver that bag of 'wrong' you're smoking.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

I hate to tell you this but at one (13 years ago really but that's here nor there) time I taught what some people considered to be the worst bunch of
5th graders a first year teacher could have and it was far from.

Give them some structure, make a good rapport with the parents and the classes I had were some of the best behaved students...oh yeah and SMART TOO.

Taught at that school for a few years.

Most of these kids lived in MY OWN area of East Baltimore.

So I think I know what the hell I am talking about.

so...why don't you STFU, watch your step coming off of your soapbox and don't trip ofver that bag of 'wrong' you're smoking.

lmao 13 years ago? Really? vast difference between kids then and kids now.

But here are some things you should recognize if you have experience in a school system. . .and a few other things you should realize:
1. the school system has to make sure that they are covered with respect to liability. So whether someone thinks the policy is too rigid or not, they have to do what is going to protect them from a lawsuit.
2. i think everyone recognizes that those kinds of kids need structure, and no one is questioning their intellectual prowess. However, that is irrelevant on the subject of whether there should be a zero tolerance weapons policy.
3. situations like this are why the school systems are steadily declining. From here on out parents really don't need to complain about school violence because when the school authorities try to really crack down and create policies to help combat such issues, the parents want to raise hell. Schools are just too political now. Often public outcry manages to force school officials to override doing the RIGHT thing. In this instance, the RIGHT thing was to punish him in accordance with the policy. And the fact that his mother is justifying his behavior is absolutely absurd. More evidence of what is going wrong with children and schools today.
4. while they are promoting the fact that he is a cub scout so heavily, perhaps they should question why someone in his cub scout group didn't advise him NOT to take the utensil to school. furthermore, why didn't his MOTHER advise him not to take the utensil to school and check to make sure he didn't?
5. i would also like to know why the media is publishing his name and his picture. don't they usually avoid doing that for minors? i suspect the goal was to get more people to rally against the school system by tugging at heartstrings. Realistically speaking, had the article simply stated that a 6yr old had taken a knife, spoon, fork utensil to school and left out the picture and cub scout references, there would not have been as much outcry.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

lmao 13 years ago? Really? vast difference between kids then and kids now.

But here are some things you should recognize if you have experience in a school system. . .and a few other things you should realize:
1. the school system has to make sure that they are covered with respect to liability. So whether someone thinks the policy is too rigid or not, they have to do what is going to protect them from a lawsuit.
2. i think everyone recognizes that those kinds of kids need structure, and no one is questioning their intellectual prowess. However, that is irrelevant on the subject of whether there should be a zero tolerance weapons policy.
3. situations like this are why the school systems are steadily declining. From here on out parents really don't need to complain about school violence because when the school authorities try to really crack down and create policies to help combat such issues, the parents want to raise hell. Schools are just too political now. Often public outcry manages to force school officials to override doing the RIGHT thing. In this instance, the RIGHT thing was to punish him in accordance with the policy. And the fact that his mother is justifying his behavior is absolutely absurd. More evidence of what is going wrong with children and schools today.
4. while they are promoting the fact that he is a cub scout so heavily, perhaps they should question why someone in his cub scout group didn't advise him NOT to take the utensil to school. furthermore, why didn't his MOTHER advise him not to take the utensil to school and check to make sure he didn't?
5. i would also like to know why the media is publishing his name and his picture. don't they usually avoid doing that for minors? i suspect the goal was to get more people to rally against the school system by tugging at heartstrings. Realistically speaking, had the article simply stated that a 6yr old had taken a knife, spoon, fork utensil to school and left out the picture and cub scout references, there would not have been as much outcry.

There really isn't that much of a difference. What matters really is the school system.

I love how you JUST KEEP telling me that these are thing "I should realize" when what I realize is that these are some things that YOU should realize is simply "out of your control".

This is the media we are talking about. An entity that THRIVES off of bad news if they made things 'simple', they wouldn't stay in business.

And to answer your number 5, I think the picture in the article and this passage:

“Zachary wears a suit and tie some days to school by his own choice because he takes school so seriously,” said Debbie Christie, Zachary’s mother, who started a Web site, helpzachary.com, in hopes of recruiting supporters to pressure the local school board at its next open meeting on Tuesday. “He is not some sort of threat to his classmates.

”Uhhhh...COMMON SENSE to me sounds like the parents (which is what's needed for the news to print that info in the first place) gave PERMISSION for the media TO USE his likeness...but, hey...what do I know?


and to your number 3, I think we have expressed that one already since the beginning of the thread and THAT was simple in case you missed it: LACK OF COMMON SENSE.



That sums this WHOLE ENTIRE thread up nicely.

Oh and I am sorry...but what do you mean by "Those Kinds of Kids"? exactly to whom are you referring to? What is the difference between those kids and "other" kids? How do you quantify such an empirical and wide sweeping statement? How many different school systems in how many years have you taught to know the difference?

I am really hoping you aren't referring to the type of kids I taught.


...hypocrite.

[ForeverRoses]

[QUOTE=deepimpact2;1857620]4. while they are promoting the fact that he is a cub scout so heavily, perhaps they should question why someone in his cub scout group didn't advise him NOT to take the utensil to school. furthermore, why didn't his MOTHER advise him not to take the utensil to school and check to make sure he didn't?
QUOTE]

I must say that while I do go through my 7 yr old's backpack every evening, he has put things in there and taken them to school without me knowing (so far it's just been a bakugan and a lego magazine). So his mother might not have known that he took this to school.

Also, I know of several cub scout dens that meet at my son's school. And the pocket mess set (the fork, spoon, knife set) is something that they use in some of their activities AT THE SCHOOL. While an adult or older child might be able to separate out a scout meeting from school- smaller children have more trouble seeing the line. So if the boy used/recieved the utensil set at a scout meeting at school, it might be hard for him to process that taking it to school for actual school is wrong.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by deepimpact2

vast difference between kids then and kids now.

Incorrect.

[DrPhil]

Normally, I would agree that showing a "cute" white kid who was excited about just joining the Cub Scouts would get people's hearts flowing and activate the "poor little white kid" syndrome. That's both a race and age (and possibly social class, assuming he was middle to upper class) dynamic.

But, here is another instance where context matters. Context involves speaking with parents and checking the student's records to see what was going on here. Zero tolerance policies are there to protect the student body and to relieve the administrators from guilt or perceived responsibility. Treat them all like potential delinquents just in case. Better safe than sorry. I understand it but disagree with it as a fool proof way of dealing with everything.

If deepimpact2 taught at a school where 6 year olds were known to be in gangs then...NO SHIT...what they bring from their gang interactions won't be received as just a spoon-knife-fork camping device. Context.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Normally, I would agree that showing a "cute" white kid who was excited about just joining the Cub Scouts would get people's hearts flowing and activate the "poor little white kid" syndrome. That's both a race and age (and possibly social class, assuming he was middle to upper class) dynamic.

But, here is another instance where context matters. Context involves speaking with parents and checking the student's records to see what was going on here. Zero tolerance policies are there to protect the student body and to relieve the administrators from guilt or perceived responsibility. Treat them all like potential delinquents just in case. Better safe than sorry. I understand it but disagree with it as a fool proof way of dealing with everything.

If deepimpact2 taught at a school where 6 year olds were known to be in gangs then...NO SHIT...what they bring from their gang interactions won't be received as just a spoon-knife-fork camping device. Context.

Actually, your thought process might be "brilliant" except for one tiny issue: IT IS STILL A KNIFE!!!!!!! Context doesn't have a thing to do with it. Try that context argument with a parent whose child just got sliced by a knife. See exactly how far you get with it.

Some of you need to stop trying to be so contrary and look at it from the angle of parents whose children are injured because of other kids bringing weapons to school. It is quite easy to get on a high horse until it happens to your own child. Then? Not so much.

[DrPhil]

Really? It's still a knife? You mean, it didn't magically transform into a unicorn because of the context? That sucks.

Years ago, my friend mistakenly left her butter knife that she uses to slice bagels at work in her bag as she went to the airport. It was detected by the powers that be. Instead of detaining her as a potential terrorist and damning her to hell, the airport authorities used their discretion. They took the object and gave her a stern talking to/warning that scared the shit out of her. Then sent her on her way. Message.

[deepimpact2]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Really? It's still a knife? You mean, it didn't magically transform into a unicorn because of the context? That sucks.

Years ago, my friend mistakenly left her butter knife that she uses to slice bagels at work in her bag as she went to the airport. It was detected by the powers that be. Instead of detaining her as a potential terrorist and damning her to hell, the airport authorities used their discretion. They took the object and gave her a stern talking to/warning that scared the shit out of her. Then sent her on her way. Message.

And?

Schools have different liability concerns.