President Obama signs equal pay law

[DrPhil]

All the political bullcrap and debate over whether the government should mandate equal pay aside.....

Discussions of gender inequality in the workforce are very similar to discussions of racial and ethnic inequality in the workforce.

There are official and unofficial reasons for the disparities. Some seem justified to those who want them to be justified. Such as, men generally get paid more because employers want employees who need less "family time" and can potentially work more. But looking beyond the surface and beyond profit margins, it is society's gender norms that make it such that men generally have fewer family responsibilities/expectations. Therefore, men would be hired, paid, and promoted based on societal factors beyond their qualifications and job performance.

On another note, I only expect male feminists and male proponents of gender equality to see this. I don't expect the average male to see this and especially not the average white man. Moreso than other males, white males have a history of being the primary breadwinner and being paid more than other gender and race categories (and feeling as though this disparity is justified for a number of reasons).

[UGAalum94]

Anyone have links to studies that show what was controlled for to come up with the 78 cents figure?

I think sex discrimination does happen, but I also see a lot of women with children who elect to seek one career path versus another because they want time with their children. I think it's much more rare for guys to do this. On average, I suspect that decisions that women make contributes to the disparity.

I can think of several people who went the PA route rather than the MD route for example.

Unlike AGDee, I also know women who elected to be stay at home mom for until their kids started school and effectively put themselves six years behind anyone who said in the workforce. I see few men who elect to do this.

I do think it's rare these days for companies to deliberately discriminate based on sex, but I also think that the standards men and women are held to on the job can be quite different and I think it can be much harder for women to get promoted beyond a certain point. My guess though it that 15 of the missing 22 cents that women don't earn comes from decisions that the women make.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

All the political bullcrap and debate over whether the government should mandate equal pay aside.....

Discussions of gender inequality in the workforce are very similar to discussions of racial and ethnic inequality in the workforce.

There are official and unofficial reasons for the disparities. Some seem justified to those who want them to be justified. Such as, men generally get paid more because employers want employees who need less "family time" and can potentially work more. But looking beyond the surface and beyond profit margins, it is society's gender norms that make it such that men generally have fewer family responsibilities/expectations. Therefore, men would be hired, paid, and promoted based on societal factors beyond their qualifications and job performance.

On another note, I only expect male feminists and male proponents of gender equality to see this. I don't expect the average male to see this and especially not the average white man. Moreso than other males, white males have a history of being the primary breadwinner and being paid more than other gender and race categories (and feeling as though this disparity is justified for a number of reasons).

It's not society's gender norms that gave women breasts. In an era where breast feeding is encouraged, there are biological reasons when childcare by women makes more sense. If you're talking about a two parent family, that makes someone else the primary breadwinner if breasty needs to be with the kids.

Sure, we can think of ways to overcome biological limitations, but it's not some arbitrary social construct.

[AGDee]

It has always been my understanding that these comparisons are based on equal titles and years of experience. Whether you took off 6 years to be a mom and then got 10 years experience, you still have 10 years of experience, just like the man who didn't take those 10 years off. I do know SAHMs and clearly, they aren't counted in this because they have no salary and no title. But, I don't know of any job that lets someone take 6 months to a year leave of absence and get that same job back, which is what Coramoor implied happens regularly. Of course I would not expect someone with less experience to make as much as someone with more experience. Nor would I expect a PA to be compared to an MD. But a CPA to a CPA, both with 15 years experience and similar marks on performance reviews? You bet they should be paid similarly.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

It's not society's gender norms that gave women breasts. In an era where breast feeding is encouraged, there are biological reasons when childcare by women makes more sense. If you're talking about a two parent family, that makes someone else the primary breadwinner if breasty needs to be with the kids.

Sure, we can think of ways to overcome biological limitations, but it's not some arbitrary social construct.

The point <-------------------------------------------------> you

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AGDee

It has always been my understanding that these comparisons are based on equal titles and years of experience. Whether you took off 6 years to be a mom and then got 10 years experience, you still have 10 years of experience, just like the man who didn't take those 10 years off.

That 6 years off to be a mom can trump the 10 years of experience in certain careers, jobs, and job market conditions.

Then we get back to the crux of the issue, who is more likely to want to take the time off to be a parent if the family can financially sustain itself, the mother or the father? The mother.

Originally Posted by AGDee

I do know SAHMs and clearly, they aren't counted in this because they have no salary and no title. But, I don't know of any job that lets someone take 6 months to a year leave of absence and get that same job back, which is what Coramoor implied happens regularly.

Other than academia, there are probably a couple of fields where that happens.

[Coramoor]

Originally Posted by AGDee

It has always been my understanding that these comparisons are based on equal titles and years of experience. Whether you took off 6 years to be a mom and then got 10 years experience, you still have 10 years of experience, just like the man who didn't take those 10 years off. I do know SAHMs and clearly, they aren't counted in this because they have no salary and no title. But, I don't know of any job that lets someone take 6 months to a year leave of absence and get that same job back, which is what Coramoor implied happens regularly. Of course I would not expect someone with less experience to make as much as someone with more experience. Nor would I expect a PA to be compared to an MD. But a CPA to a CPA, both with 15 years experience and similar marks on performance reviews? You bet they should be paid similarly.

No one is saying that CPA to CPA, given the same location, same business, same job function, same experience, as well as same sense of self worth should be paid differently based on their sex. All things being equal, they should be paid the same. However, that is a LOT of criteria to fill, and probably not even an tenth of the qualifications that can be looked at. I don't see how any study measuring such a pay disparity can be accurate.

It is not as simple as equal experience and academic degree.

It has always been my understanding that these comparisons are based on equal titles and years of experience.

Your understanding, huh? What if your understanding is wrong. Then you will be quoting a study that in no way validates your point and in fact may invalidate it, yet you are passing it off as truth. That's a quick way to look like a fool.

Dr.Phil,
I see what you are saying, but at the same time I think that answer is a cop out. Where I do agree is that any time things such as this are brought up it is very difficult to get to the meat of the issue because you have too many people's emotions wrapped around the axle. Next thing you have is someone throwing around the word racist or sexist or whatever...usually to distract others from their weak arguments.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Coramoor

Dr.Phil,
I see what you are saying, but at the same time I think that answer is a cop out.

Because people want a quick fix and want to believe that it "just so happens" that males are at the higher end of the salary scale. These trends are no coincidence and even UGAalum's post is an example.

Gender inequality and "family vs career inequality" do not begin in the workforce. As society becomes more equal our institutions tend to become more equal. If society begins to see childbirth, childrearing, and other family responsibilities as more than a "woman's job," employers will see that happier male and female employees who are able to balance work-home make for better workers and higher profits. Some companies (and countries) have adjusted their alienating capitalist structure in similar fashions.

This equal pay law may not go far but it may go further than it would have gone 15-20 years ago when the gender disparities were greater and more swept under the rug.

Originally Posted by Coramoor

Where I do agree is that any time things such as this are brought up it is very difficult to get to the meat of the issue because you have too many people's emotions wrapped around the axle

That is NOT what I said.

Originally Posted by Coramoor

Next thing you have is someone throwing around the word racist or sexist or whatever...usually to distract others from their weak arguments.

[nittanyalum]

Senusret!!! Quick, get in here!!!

It's Gender War 2009!

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by nittanyalum

Senusret!!! Quick, get in here!!!

It's Gender War 2009!

LOL!

Is Coramoor a man?

[nittanyalum]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

LOL!

Is Coramoor a man?

From the location and past posts I'd always assumed he was a soldier overseas. (and hey, thanks for that, man)

[UGAalum94]

Dr. Phil, do you complete reject the idea that biology plays a role in gender norms or do you simply expect that we can tinker with enough of the other influences to neutralize it?

I also think you misrepresented my position earlier. I don't think it's a "it just so happens" thing. But I think that some of the gender inequality in pay in based on decisions that women make and that some of those decisions are influenced by the biological differences in men and women not particularly dependent on gender roles as socially constructed.

I also acknowledge that in some cases, women experience gender discrimination in employment.

I though that this and the links at the bottom were pretty interesting in explaining exactly how things are measured and how they've previously been controlled for:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male-fe...ity_in_the_USA

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Dr. Phil, do you complete reject the idea that biology plays a role in gender

No.

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

or do you simply expect that we can tinker with enough of the other influences to neutralize it?

We can stop exaggerating the biological differences between men and women. You mentioned childbirth as though it isn't obvious that this is a biological difference. The gender norms come in how we interpret these biological differences.

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

I also think you misrepresented my position earlier. I don't think it's a "it just so happens" thing. But I think that some of the gender inequality in pay in based on decisions that women make and that some of those decisions are influenced by the biological differences in men and women not particularly dependent on gender roles as socially constructed.

I didn't misrepresent your position at all. We simply disagree with whether your position boils down to a "it just so happens" approach. I say that it does because it is as though these biological differences explain more of the gender inequality in this society than they do. Women can have babies. Men can't. Some women choose to have babies. Men still can't. "It just so happens that this is the case therefore it is what it is."

The outcome is what we're looking at here and, again, how we interpret biological differences and what the gender norms are based on. In a more gender egalitarian society, family dynamics do not rest predominantly on women's shoulders. Men aren't overwhelmingly "free" from family responsibilities from the moment of conception. These gender dynamics would extend to all social institutions, including the workforce.

[AOII Angel]

Wanting to work part time, be a stay at home mommy should have no bearing on the millions of women who work full time in this country. Considering that child bearing years only apply to a very specific part of the years a woman can work and that the vast majority of women do not have more than 2 children, using the likelihood that a worker may become pregnant as a reason to pay every woman in the US less than her male counterparts is RIDICULOUS! My husband would LOVE to be a stay at home house husband...I already support our family. Should men get paid less because some men decide not to work? Shoot, my husband has an MD with advanced fellowship training at Hopkins...if you want to talk about wasted education, he's an excellent example!!

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Wanting to work part time, be a stay at home mommy should have no bearing on the millions of women who work full time in this country. Considering that child bearing years only apply to a very specific part of the years a woman can work and that the vast majority of women do not have more than 2 children, using the likelihood that a worker may become pregnant as a reason to pay every woman in the US less than her male counterparts is RIDICULOUS! My husband would LOVE to be a stay at home house husband...I already support our family. Should men get paid less because some men decide not to work? Shoot, my husband has an MD with advanced fellowship training at Hopkins...if you want to talk about wasted education, he's an excellent example!!

I love seeing families that defy traditional gender norms! There are men and women with MDs, PhDs, etc. who choose to stay at home.

If more men were stay at home fathers, to the point where there was a pattern to be observed rather than outliers, employers would change their policies accordingly.

Single father families also challenge traditional gender norms. Unfortunately, if these men are not in fields where they can work from home and set their own schedules, they find themselves in workplaces that are unwilling to accomodate a single father. This is not only because of the time commitments of the family situation itself but also because having family responsibilities that rival career responsibilities defies norms of masculinity and maleness.