Removal of Arab Americans from flight

[sistarisin]

Originally posted by sequel_1913
I am very sorry but I would not have wanted to fly with them either. Now I know what you all will say, "How can an AA person say something like that?" Well I am saying what most are feeling but afraid to say. If I am on a plane and someone of Arabian descent(sp) is on the plane I will remove myself and find other means of transportation, if they are not removed. Now I agree with the airline, it is better to be safe than sorry. There were other box cutters and knives found on other planes that were grounded, so we have no way of knowing who is a threat and who is not. So my opinion is, it is better to risk a lawsuit and save many innocent(sp) lives than to be afraid of giving out a little money.

I can really empathize with what you're saying. I am not afraid to say that I will feel trepidation when flying, taking the subway, attending a large public event, etc. I do not; however, place that fear with a person of Arab American descent. On 9.11.01, my innocence was taken away from me. My trust in the freedoms that I was born with has been significantly reduced. This horrendous act was carried out by members of one race. The people that share this race will now,unfortunately, understand the racial profiling that is a way of life for us.

If institutions, authority figures, security personnel, law enforcement agents are given permission to legally racially profile Arab Americans, where will it stop? Will we be excluded? I think not. Why? Because people who have racial hatred in their hearts will take advantage and use this as an excuse to victimize ALL ethnic groups.

[sequel_1913]

Originally posted by sistarisin


I can really empathize with what you're saying. I am not afraid to say that I will feel trepidation when flying, taking the subway, attending a large public event, etc. I do not; however, place that fear with a person of Arab American descent. On 9.11.01, my innocence was taken away from me. My trust in the freedoms that I was born with has been significantly reduced. This horrendous act was carried out by members of one race. The people that share this race will now,unfortunately, understand the racial profiling that is a way of life for us.

If institutions, authority figures, security personnel, law enforcement agents are given permission to legally racially profile Arab Americans, where will it stop? Will we be excluded? I think not. Why? Because people who have racial hatred in their hearts will take advantage and use this as an excuse to victimize ALL ethnic groups.

While I to understand where you are coming from, please understand me when I say if we do not take this percaution and check them ALL then how will our safety be granted. I, personally, don't think it was racial profiling as much as I think it was a percautionary action. Take a moment and think about this, what if they did not remove those persons and they hijacked that plane, then everyone would critisize the airline for not checking them and we would blame the airline for being careless, in light of what just happend.

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by sequel_1913


While I to understand where you are coming from, please understand me when I say if we do not take this percaution and check them ALL then how will our safety be granted. I, personally, don't think it was racial profiling as much as I think it was a percautionary action. Take a moment and think about this, what if they did not remove those persons and they hijacked that plane, then everyone would critisize the airline for not checking them and we would blame the airline for being careless, in light of what just happend.

I understand both sides of this issue. However uneasy I may have felt boarding that particular flight, I would have to realize that this (by definition) IS racial profiling. Racial profiling can appear to have both positive and negative effects, and the intention of the racial profilers can be a "good" one, for example, preventing further terrorism by singling out certain "suspicious" individuals (that happen to be of a certain group). Although this type of profiling "makes sense," it is just a step away from a group of people being detained and mistreated based on religion and ethnicity. For instance, many Arab Americans have been targeted for the actions of certain extreme Muslim terrorist groups. However, the overwhelming majority of Arab Americans are Christian...which does not fit the stereotype.
While you may think even this type of profiling is justified, think about the store clerk that follows black customers around because you "never know which one of them is going to be shoplifting or robbing my store...you might as well be safe than sorry and get them all." Terrorism is more extreme than this example, but racial profiling is conducted regardless of the extremity of the offense...nonetheless, it should not be encouraged or tolerated.

[sistarisin]

Sequel,

We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one. I think the point of clarification for me is that :

(1) EVERYONE should have the same detailed, unique screening process

(2) Northwest went a step above by removing the Arab Americans from the flight and allowed the flight to proceed.

Being the devil's advocate here: Let's just say that I look like I could be of Arab descent yet I'm really Black. Do the Northwest officials really believe that my name is Tishaun Jackson or have I assumed someone else's identity? Point is, I have cousins that look like they are of Arab descent; yet, they are your everyday black folk. So, where does one draw the line so that we can all feel safe? What is really feeling safe? Cuz the caucasian guy with the coked out lookin eyes, long stringy hair, and the strange, heavy-looking back pack causes me the same amount of discomfort that someone of Arab descent might.

[sequel_1913]

Originally posted by ChaosDST



For instance, many Arab Americans have been targeted for the actions of certain extreme Muslim terrorist groups. However, the overwhelming majority of Arab Americans are Christian...which does not fit the stereotype.
While you may think even this type of profiling is justified, think about the store clerk that follows black customers around because you "never know which one of them is going to be shoplifting or robbing my store...you might as well be safe than sorry and get them all." Terrorism is more extreme than this example, but racial profiling is conducted regardless of the extremity of the offense...nonetheless, it should not be encouraged or tolerated.

Like Sistarisin said on this issue we must agree to disagree. While I understand that racial profiling is racial profiling, in this case my opinion is it was the correct thing to do. The airline was possibly saving houndreds of live by doing so. Now, I don't agree with them taking off without them if they were innocent, I am glad that they took the extra percautionary step. Following me in the store b/c I am Black cannot compare to saving houndreds of lives. Following me around a store is just plain ignorant and I will check you on the issue if you do so, but making sure that America does not repeat history is ok with me. I am not saying in any way that in this short time we have forgotten what happened b/c we NEVER will, but "Those who forget the past, are doomed to repeat it."

[ChaosDST]

Originally posted by sequel_1913


Like Sistarisin said on this issue we must agree to disagree. While I understand that racial profiling is racial profiling, in this case my opinion is it was the correct thing to do. The airline was possibly saving houndreds of live by doing so. Now, I don't agree with them taking off without them if they were innocent, I am glad that they took the extra percautionary step. Following me in the store b/c I am Black cannot compare to saving houndreds of lives. Following me around a store is just plain ignorant and I will check you on the issue if you do so, but making sure that America does not repeat history is ok with me. I am not saying in any way that in this short time we have forgotten what happened b/c we NEVER will, but "Those who forget the past, are doomed to repeat it."

Uh, the store analogy was just an analogy. However, one "justified" instance of racial profiling is not far from another "unjustified" one. As Black people, we are hypocrites if we believe so. We must think beyond the short term fear and need for safety, to the long term ramifications of all of this.

[lovelyivy84]

I read the story where a pilot refused to fly because of an Arab passanger and nowhere in the article did it mention that the Arabic gentleman who was removed from this plane was guilty of anything in any way. He did nothing but get on a plane trying to go somewhere.

THis was not just. THis was not right. THis was a direct violation of our freedoms. Hightened security on planes does not mean racial profiling. I want to know that nobody on my plane has a knife or a gun, not their race.

It is really just one step from this type of behavior in my opinion to the incidents of violence and murder against Arab Americans that we see going on. It is all just wrong, and we as black people need to fight for their rights (because if the govt, or any corporation, or business entity take them, ours are next)

note for all: Arabs, and Arabic. An Arabian is a horse.

Originally posted by sequel_1913


Like Sistarisin said on this issue we must agree to disagree. While I understand that racial profiling is racial profiling, in this case my opinion is it was the correct thing to do. The airline was possibly saving houndreds of live by doing so. Now, I don't agree with them taking off without them if they were innocent, I am glad that they took the extra percautionary step. Following me in the store b/c I am Black cannot compare to saving houndreds of lives. Following me around a store is just plain ignorant and I will check you on the issue if you do so, but making sure that America does not repeat history is ok with me. I am not saying in any way that in this short time we have forgotten what happened b/c we NEVER will, but "Those who forget the past, are doomed to repeat it."

[sunnydays96]

Problems with racial profiling:

1)Who determines who is suspicious-passengers, cashiers, the luggage boy? When it comes to races, many people have a hard time telling the difference between people of the same race, let alone people who may look like a certain race.

2)What makes one suspicious- "oh, he looks Arab/Muslim", "he/she is wearing different clothing", he/she's walking slowly, or looks uncertain/nervous. How does one define suspicious?

3)We check all those that look Arab or seem suspicious to ensure safety and oops we overlook the (whatever other race) person with a bomb. Well this situation makes us vulnerable and prey to other acts of violence in the friendly skies.

Racial profiling is exactly that RACIAL PROFILING. Whether it happens in a store or on a plane. One may say that the store profiling doesn't matter cause it's not to the degree of saving lives. Overall, the method doesn't work on one level or the next and one can't use a wrong to do right. The real problem is the ignorace that people are so quick to fall for. People want a fast and easy solution to a huge problem and don't want to take the time out to contemplate a justified and long-term solution.

So what are other solutions to the problem? My opinion- Airports need to correct their security measures. There are plenty of airports that have become laxed in taking precautions for customer safety and customer service. Airports are forgetting to do regular maintenance on planes, they will lose your luggage at the drop of a dime, delay you for no reason, and let you through the detectors because they attributed the alarm going off due to an earring-I've seen it happen.

So it's not the race that we should have a problem with. It's our own system. Everything that happens is give and take. These terrorists could only do but so much. The rest of their mission was aided by the inefficiencies of our airports.

We had this discussion in one of my classes (my school is predominately white) and of course most of the minorities didn't support racial profiling, but the majority well you know.....

Allowing racial profiling is just another step in the wrong direction towards the advancement for ALL minorities.

[c&c1913]

I see both sides. But lets' face it, everybody will not be pleased. People will be offended one way or another. My cousin said something interesting the other day. He said that right now he's more afraid of people of Middle Eastern decent than the KKK.

[sequel_1913]

Let me make something a little more clear, I am not trying to justify what the airline did all I am saying is that I understand why it was done. Again in my opinion, and it is only that, my opinion, if I were on a flight and an Arab was on the flight "I" would feel more comfortable finding other means of transportation and it would be my perrogative(sp) to do so. Fear begets violence, not removing someone from a plane b/c they may be a part of a group who kills. All persons responsible for this act of violence has not been caught, so is it not only fair that they check out all who fit the "profile"?

[prettypoodle6]

from my understanding the airlines have the right to "refuse service" and remove someone from a flight if the majority of the other passengers feel uncomfortable by that passenger's presence. either the one person has to get off - or the rest of the plane gets off.... financially it makes more sense.

not saying its morally/ethically/racially right, but i dont know if they will have a case against the airlines....

[DELTABRAT]

I have to agree with Soror sequel on this issue.

People are just too afraid. Airlines do have the right to refuse service if they please and from what I know, the majority of the people wanted those people removed so...what were they supposed to do.

I think that eventually we will be able to be more tolerable, but right now, it is TOO SOON!

Airlines are losing millions per day. So if they have to hurt the feeling of a few to make happy the majority, they are going to do just that. Especially in light of the fact that those in question JUST MAY be involved in something.

No one knows, but I think not many are willing to find out the hard way.

Especially considering the fact that there are a gang of Arab people still roaming around with hidden agendas. That mess is scary, I'm sorry. Crop dusters have been grounded, trucks carrying hazardous materials are being stopped and drivers asked for identification, etc. for fear of a bioterrorist attack. Sept. 11 was scary but you don't want to see what can happen if fools just start spraying anthrax randomly in the air.

It would be different if it were like Oklahoma (sad as that was) where there was a sense that that was the ONLY act that was planned to be committed. From what I can see, the agenda is set and it is to take out as many Americans as possible...point...blank.

I am scheduled to fly to Atlanta from Los Angeles in three weeks. What's more is I am going for the APHA (American Public Health Association)Annual meeting, discussing public health, including bioterrorism, etc. The Surgeon General, CDC, NIH, etc. will be there. There is a HUGE threat of some sort of "plan" to thwart the conference, take out as many health officials as possible. Guess what folks, I ain't havin' it. I don't care how it makes me look and I'll be damned if I am made to feel like I should be empathetic based on the fact that I am Black. I wanted to cry when I saw an Arab man on TV saying he was removed from a plane because people were not comfortable. The other side of me was like "Sorry holmes, call the homies and tell 'em you ain't comin."

The fact is that I promised my son that, barring an accidental crash, mommy will be back...and I plan to do that by any means necessary. I am indeed looking at folks sideways if I feel even the slightest threat. Unfortunately after Sept. 11, the slightest threat means just being on the damn plane. So I am sorry but Hassan, Sayed and Abdul CANNOT get on the plane with me next month.

Piggy-backing Soror sequel, I will leave if need be.

It makes me mad because I am very afraid and I have debated whether or not to go. Should I ride a train and potentially take an entire day to get there. Who's to say trains ain't next on the list. I have to have my own back because I am ONE person and President Bush ain't thinkin' about my a$$.

Sorry so long.

[TRSimon]

On the topic of airline rights:

Those people were refused service because of their appearance. They were screened properly and gave no cause to those on the flight to be alarmed. They just happened to be the wrong color. If they don't win the suit because of fearful judges and bad timing, you can bet your backside they will win the appeal.

Hello, steel trap discrimination suit!!
I just got a discount to fly Northwest in the mail, and they don't EVER have to worry about getting my money.

At least one of the parties is seeking legal counsel, and he should. Now what happens to all of you flag waving bigots who are afraid when black people are in season again? Especially after you have supported some bonehead discriminatory practices into legality?

Yeah, just keep on writing off your common sense on your fear and bigotry.

I have to agree to disagree on this one, but I pray none of you ever have to be swabbed down for the gunpowder test or searched because you are traveling with a friend or loved one who isn't even an Arab, but looks like one.

I have, and all you fearful bigots need a check and a talk with the LORD, because somehow, I don't think He digs the fact that folks claiming to be his people are supporting and perpetrating this kind of oppression. Then again, I guess the KKK likes to think they are his people too, but they aren't.


TRSimon

[sistarisin]

Originally posted by TRSimon
On the topic of airline rights:

Now what happens to all of you flag waving bigots who are afraid when black people are in season again? Especially after you have supported some bonehead discriminatory practices into legality?

My thoughts exactly!

[LiberatedQueen]

Originally posted by sequel_1913
I am very sorry but I would not have wanted to fly with them either. Now I know what you all will say, "How can an AA person say something like that?" Well I am saying what most are feeling but afraid to say. If I am on a plane and someone of Arabian descent(sp) is on the plane I will remove myself and find other means of transportation, if they are not removed. Now I agree with the airline, it is better to be safe than sorry. There were other box cutters and knives found on other planes that were grounded, so we have no way of knowing who is a threat and who is not. So my opinion is, it is better to risk a lawsuit and save many innocent(sp) lives than to be afraid of giving out a little money.

This is interesting because Blacks have been terrorized by Whites in this country for 400 years. But if one of us walked on a plane w/ a bunch of White people, and said to the stewardess "Um, excuse me, but these people look very much like the White people who enslaved my family, raped my female relatives, systematically discriminated against me for 400 years, arrested me just because I'm Black, and constantly get off for shooting my people just because they have a badge...I have been terrorized my whole life, and I'm not comfortable flying w/ them so please escort them off the plane."
Not only would the authorities be called, but they would probably drag us off in straight jackets. Saying all of that to say this: right now there is a very powerful propaganda machine that has a lot of us feeling like we're "Americans united", and for the purposes of finding survivors, and claiming the bodies of our loved ones, that is a good thing.
But let us not forget that in the previous nine wars that this country has fought, Blacks have done the same thing in hopes that after the war, we too would FINALLY be considered "American" and benefit from all that comes w/ that title, you know, like not being lynched, getting fair treatment in the legal system, not facing a one in three chance of going to jail or prison, getting an equal education in terms of access to the basics like books and teachers.
Blacks have been terrorized in this country for so long that we think it's normal and don't even recognize it as terrorism. And while we rally around the flag, our children are dying from terrorism in the ghettos, our brothers are shuttled out to jail in terrorist paddy wagons, and while a few of us manage to make it out and get a good job, we can still be pulled over for driving while Black, or shot by the boys in blue for looking suspicsious (sp?). But if we were to respond to our terrorism the way this country wants to respond to bin Laden (please recognize the fact that they have convicted this man w/o showing us any evidence...oh, but that is exactly what they do to us also...) then we would be shot down on site (which can happen anyway).
So we can rally around this flag if we want to...it almost serves as some kind of comfort to know that for once, we are not at the bottom...but wait until this blows over...we'll still go shopping at the 8 out of 10 stores owned by Arabs in our community, we'll go back to being hunted by cops, go back to dying faster than any other race from any other diseases because we can't afford anyother medicine except prayer (which I KNOW changes things).
I'm sorry this is soo long, but I grew up as a Black woman in Germany. What is happening in this country right now w/ the propaganda and empty rhetoric is exactly the way Hitler began his campaigns. It's scary to see Black people who know what it's like to be on the bottom, take part in it.