ITT We Discuss Theology

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Ha! My column last week was on guilt - I'm for it! As I look around the world today, it seems to me that there are plenty of people for whom the concept of guilt is entirely foreign. I'll spare y'all the whole column - but I think guilt can be a very good thing.

I think the Catholic Church misplaces guilt by making a sin of things that I don't believe to be sinful. I still see its lingering effects on my own attitudes. It's a bit like having to shake off an ever present fog. It clears but sometimes it returns out of no where. (And I think it returns from habit, not because it's correct.)

I don't think guilt or shame are positive emotions, even if they do have their places alongside anger and grief.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Ha! My column last week was on guilt - I'm for it! As I look around the world today, it seems to me that there are plenty of people for whom the concept of guilt is entirely foreign. I'll spare y'all the whole column - but I think guilt can be a very good thing.

It can be, or it can be debilitating, depending on how it is "used." Guilt as a self-awareness -- good. Guilt as a cudgel -- not so good. And being the Protestant that I am, guilt that's not coupled with grace -- so not good.

Meanwhile, as a Presbyterian, I have to note one place where the translators clearly didn't worry about a closer translation from the Latin: The Our Father. They kept the traditional (and archaic) form of the English, including "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. The Latin is: et dimitte nobis debita nostra, sicut et nos dimìttimus debitòribus nostris. Clearly, the closer translation is "forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."

[Psi U MC Vito]

Order of the Mass.

http://www.usccb.org/romanmissal/order-of-mass.pdf

[dekeguy]

Oramus.

[Psi U MC Vito]

While I do think guilt has it's uses, I don't think it should be the focus of the Eucharist. That being said, I don't mind having special forms for potential times that have a more solemn and less joyous theme, like how we use the Great Litany in my church for Lent, I just don't see it being good to dwell on. Instead we should dwell on the gift of undeserved grace given to us.

[Drolefille]

^^ MC, does debts in that sense mean those beyond the financial? I've always wondered if the translation doesn't change because of the connotation of the english word 'debt' and particularly 'debtor.'

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

^^ MC, does debts in that sense mean those beyond the financial? I've always wondered if the translation doesn't change because of the connotation of the english word 'debt' and particularly 'debtor.'

In this sense, it doesn't mean financial at all. (Although I've always joked that the reason Presbyterians say "debts" while everyone else says "trespasses" is that Scots are more worried about who owes who money.)

FWIW, the original Greek uses a word (ὀφειλήματα) that translates into English as "debt." Apparently, in Aramaic, the word for debt and the word for sin are the same thing. In this context, "debts" means "sins" -- shortcomings for which reparation is due. Perhaps it's just my upbringing, always having said "debts/debtors," but it has always seemed closer to the mark for me than "trespasses/those who trespass against us." "Trespass" has it's own connotation in English -- going onto someone else's property without permission.

If connotations are the worry, then the appropriate translation, it seems to me, is "forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us," as that is clearly the meaning.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

In this sense, it doesn't mean financial at all. (Although I've always joked that the reason Presbyterians say "debts" while everyone else says "trespasses" is that Scots are more worried about who owes who money.)

FWIW, the original Greek uses a word (ὀφειλήματα) that translates into English as "debt." Apparently, in Aramaic, the word for debt and the word for sin are the same thing. In this context, "debts" means "sins" -- shortcomings for which reparation is due. Perhaps it's just my upbringing, always having said "debts/debtors," but it has always seemed closer to the mark for me than "trespasses/those who trespass against us." "Trespass" has it's own connotation in English -- going onto someone else's property without permission.

If connotations are the worry, then the appropriate translation, it seems to me, is "forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us," as that is clearly the meaning.

Oh I agree that trespass has the same difficulties as debt. I question whether your preferred translation would work as I suspect it would raise objections toward mankind forgiving sins when that belongs to God.

That said, as with trespasses, I suspect any translation can be taught and explained. I know they didn't leave us with the misconception that the Our Father was about forgiving people who come onto our property.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Oh I agree that trespass has the same difficulties as debt. I question whether your preferred translation would work as I suspect it would raise objections toward mankind forgiving sins when that belongs to God.

Actually, "forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us" is the translation of the English Language Liturgical Consultation (ELLC), an ecumenical group that works toward common translations of texts. The ELLC version appears along with traditional versions in Episcopal, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist and other liturgies. But because the Lord's Prayer is one of those things people learn early on, it is one of the last things where people willingly accept a new translation.

But "forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us" is very clearly the meaning of the original Greek.

That said, as with trespasses, I suspect any translation can be taught and explained. I know they didn't leave us with the misconception that the Our Father was about forgiving people who come onto our property.

Yep, and we were certainly taught what debt meant in this context. In fact, I understood debt in this context before I understood what it meant in financial terms.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Vito - They moved the books! I'll write this week and find out if they have any left and if so I'll get you one. Once I have it in my possession we'll talk shipping, etc.

RE: Guilt. The nice thing about any Catholic guilt is there is reconciliation - so there should be no lingering guilt,unless you are unrepentant and unwilling to amend your life, in which case you must not think whatever you are doing is wrong, so why feel guilty? Guilt should lead you to think about whatever is making you feel that way - then you deal with it, one way or the other. As I see people with no qualms about some of the most self-centered behavior imaginable I can't help but wish they had some pangs of guilt.

Thing is, for example, feeling guilty about sex, or about my relationship resulted in me acting to not feel guilty - by leaving the institution that was telling me I should feel guilty. At this time it's also led to me lying to my parents, which is something else to feel guilty about, but the knowledge of their beliefs and our current proximity means that I'm going to lie and feel guilty for that rather than again be pressured to feel guilty for something that is not wrong.

Your perspective works in an ideal world, and it's one that I hope to eventually live up to, but it isn't necessarily realistic. I know that I'm more sensitive than most to disappointing people I care about, but I don't believe I'm at such an extreme that there isn't a large number of people who are on a similar spectrum.

I don't want people to be motivated by guilt, not even self-centered people. I'd rather they learn to be motivated by more other-centered causes. Additionally I think it's silly to assume that we know whether people feel guilt or not.

ETA: Something clicked for me, and we do a similar exercise with our clients about worries, if you're doing everything you can about it then why worry? If you're not doing everything you can, and don't intend to, then why worry about it? All that said, people still worry.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Actually, "forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us" is the translation of the English Language Liturgical Consultation (ELLC), an ecumenical group that works toward common translations of texts. The ELLC version appears along with traditional versions in Episcopal, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist and other liturgies. But because the Lord's Prayer is one of those things people learn early on, it is one of the last things where people willingly accept a new translation.

But "forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us" is very clearly the meaning of the original Greek.

Aye, I get that. I'm curious if anyone does raise those objections. But I know what you mean about people not accepting new translation/etc. I already couldn't get down with the new gestures in Mass, but the new language will probably help me gain distance, as I've said.

Yep, and we were certainly taught what debt meant in this context. In fact, I understood debt in this context before I understood what it meant in financial terms.

lol! Probably the same with trespass for me, although I don't recall.

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

Vito - They moved the books! I'll write this week and find out if they have any left and if so I'll get you one. Once I have it in my possession we'll talk shipping, etc.

LOL. Thanks a lot SWTX. I had a feeling I would have some serious issues getting a copy of the BDW. It is a very specialized book used only by a few groups, none of which are anywhere near me. Also I don't know if they are going to be reprinted now that I know about the changes to the Roman Missal. The issue is made fuzzier by the fact that the Anglican Use and Ordinates are pretty unique in the Latin rite and I have no idea what they are considered. It's not like the Eastern Catholic Churches which are autonomous. Maybe they will allow it to continue as a separate rite like the Ambrosian Rite with it's own translations. Who knows.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

But because the Lord's Prayer is one of those things people learn early on, it is one of the last things where people willingly accept a new translation.

It's funny my Rector was told when elected in no uncertain terms that there was to be absolutly no use of the new form of the Lord's Prayer. This was especially amusing when I heard about it because she was the first female rector we had.

[SWTXBelle]

Oh, I don't have any idea where I will be in five years - the past 12 years or so have taught me that!

AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT - A Word A Day had this as a comment:
Def: Belief in the doctrine of predestination, that the divine will has predetermined the course of events, people's fate, etc. Here's a limerick by Maurice E. Hare (1886-1967) that perfectly illustrates the word predestinarianism:
There once was a man who said "Damn!
It occurs to me that I am
A being that moves
In predestinate grooves:
I'm not even a bus, I'm a tram!"

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

AND NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT - A Word A Day had this as a comment:
Def: Belief in the doctrine of predestination, that the divine will has predetermined the course of events, people's fate, etc. Here's a limerick by Maurice E. Hare (1886-1967) that perfectly illustrates the word predestinarianism:
There once was a man who said "Damn!
It occurs to me that I am
A being that moves
In predestinate grooves:
I'm not even a bus, I'm a tram!"

LOL.

As the regular Presbyterian contributor to this conversation, however, I feel compelled to point out that predestination =/= "Belief . . . that the divine will has predetermined the course of events, people's fate, etc.," at least not as used by those of us in the tradition with whom it is primarily associated.

[Gusteau]

Gotcha, it's a very understandable misconception.

Latin Mass does not always equal Tridentine Mass, but I would be willing to bet that most of the parishes interested having a Latin Mass would be using the Tridentine Mass because it's pre-Vatican II.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Gusteau

Gotcha, it's a very understandable misconception.

Latin Mass does not always equal Tridentine Mass, but I would be willing to bet that most of the parishes interested having a Latin Mass would be using the Tridentine Mass because it's pre-Vatican II.

Right. Or at least historically that's true. I don't know what missal's being used for the recent resurgence in Latin masses.