any "nice" conservatives out there?

[AGDee]

Originally posted by MTSUGURL


Tolerance or agreement? This is a line that can sometimes be very blurry, and for that reason, some conservatives may err on the side of holding on to what they value.
I will always tolerate someone's right to make a choice that I may vehemently oppose, but that doesn't mean I agree with the choice they're making.

More people need to realize that difference. Not allowing schools to conduct formal prayers according to some administrator's choice of which prayer is said (which is the thing that's illegal) is not the same as a kid bowing his head to say grace to himself before he eats lunch in the cafeteria. There is nothing to stop that child from doing that and if anybody did stop them from doing that, the ACLU would probably be all over that too. I pray all over the place. Nobody can legislate my thoughts and I can converse with God any time I please.

Keeping abortion legal doens't mean forcing anybody to have one. Those who don't agree simply don't get them, don't date people who want them to get one (or who would get one), don't donate money to agencies that support it, etc. It simply allows other people the option of free will. It also doesn't mandate doctors to perform them. Only those who choose to perform them do so. Same with the staff in the clinics.

Allowing gay marriages doesn't affect anybody else in any way, shape or form. Nobody is going to force anybody else to marry someone of their own sex. People will choose to do this on their own. Nobody can force a church to perform the marriage. Churches can refuse to marry anybody they don't want to marry.

Drinking is legal for me, but I choose not to do it these days (because it makes me sick). That doesn't mean I believe in Prohibition.

I consider myself liberal simply because I think people should be able to choose whether or not to do all the above things, whether I personally believe or would choose to do them myself.

Dee

[Phasad1913]

I can't say anything other than EXACTLY!!! Very well said. Seems pretty simple, doesn't it? Conservatives have really done a number on America by making it seem like this ideology is somehow loony or crazy. It all makes very good sense to me.

Originally Posted by AGDee

More people need to realize that difference. Not allowing schools to conduct formal prayers according to some administrator's choice of which prayer is said (which is the thing that's illegal) is not the same as a kid bowing his head to say grace to himself before he eats lunch in the cafeteria. There is nothing to stop that child from doing that and if anybody did stop them from doing that, the ACLU would probably be all over that too. I pray all over the place. Nobody can legislate my thoughts and I can converse with God any time I please.

Keeping abortion legal doens't mean forcing anybody to have one. Those who don't agree simply don't get them, don't date people who want them to get one (or who would get one), don't donate money to agencies that support it, etc. It simply allows other people the option of free will. It also doesn't mandate doctors to perform them. Only those who choose to perform them do so. Same with the staff in the clinics.

Allowing gay marriages doesn't affect anybody else in any way, shape or form. Nobody is going to force anybody else to marry someone of their own sex. People will choose to do this on their own. Nobody can force a church to perform the marriage. Churches can refuse to marry anybody they don't want to marry.

Drinking is legal for me, but I choose not to do it these days (because it makes me sick). That doesn't mean I believe in Prohibition.

I consider myself liberal simply because I think people should be able to choose whether or not to do all the above things, whether I personally believe or would choose to do them myself.

Dee

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by Phasad1913

I can't say anything other than EXACTLY!!! Very well said. Seems pretty simple, doesn't it? Conservatives have really done a number on America by making it seem like this ideology is somehow loony or crazy. It all makes very good sense to me.

Not conservatives, "some" conservatives. Please don't paint all of us with the same brush. There are some of us conservatives who don't think government should have its hand in everything.

[valkyrie]

Originally Posted by hoosier

Ann Coulter = hot looking conservative babe-o-licious, Time Magazine cover in '05.

You're with me, Ann Coulter.

[shinerbock]

Which is fine, but conservatives don't make the argument that we're being forced to get them, they make they argument that babies are killed as a form of birth control.

Most conservatives I know don't want school prayer. However, I don't see a problem with a student at graduation saying a prayer, or someone asking God to protect the players in a football game.

Gay marriage does affect people, particularly those who are married. Say I graduate from _________ and a few years later the school starts giving out a bunch of degrees to people who didn't meet the requirements I did. That changes the meaning of the degree, doesn't it? Similar case here. People didn't get married with the expectation that gay people would fall under the same title one day. Thus by providing for gay marriage, you're lumping in their union with something they might not want to be associated with.

On a side note, liberalism doesn't give everyone the freedom to do whatever they want. Liberal ideology decides that the government should invest your money for you. They decide that your money should go to public welfare causes, regardless of moral objection to them. Many of them want to restrict or eliminate my access to firearms. They think that since me or you have plenty of money, we should have to turn over more of that money to the government than other people are required to. Just a few of the reasons I'm a conservative.

[valkyrie]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Gay marriage does affect people, particularly those who are married. Say I graduate from _________ and a few years later the school starts giving out a bunch of degrees to people who didn't meet the requirements I did. That changes the meaning of the degree, doesn't it? Similar case here.

Apples and oranges -- both are tasty, but not at all the same thing.

[greekalum]

Also, shinerbock, schools often DO change their degree requirements. Someone who got the same degree as you did ten years ago possibly did not take all the same classes as you did.

(Per your own university catalog:

"Undergraduate students who have not
been enrolled at Auburn University for a period of five years or more
and who are returning to the same curriculum may be subject to different
university, college, school, or departmental requirements than those
which existed at the time of their initial entry, as well as those which
existed at the program level when continuous enrollment ceased."

"The following covers a number
of possible situations for students who enroll at Auburn University as
freshmen and for students who are transferring from another institution
into Auburn. Different requirements are based on when the student first
began collegiate study." )

[shinerbock]

Of course they are different. If I had an identical comparison that applied, there wouldnt be much of a debate.

As to whoever posted last...greekalum, of course things change. However, adding or taking away a class is quite different from changing the entire make up of what can create a marriage. I don't really think there is a debate that this substantially changes marriage, it is not merely a slight alteration. Lets say Auburn completely changed their degree programs, to the detriment and dismay of previous grads...don't you think they'd be angry about it? Perhaps they would have a valid grievance, no? What if I signed a petition, only to find that later someone had changed it, including something I had serious problems with, and my name still remained? Make all the statements you want about equality, but the fact is there are millions of couples upset at the prospect that something they value so dearly may soon include something they adamently oppose.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

On a side note, liberalism doesn't give everyone the freedom to do whatever they want. Liberal ideology decides that the government should invest your money for you. They decide that your money should go to public welfare causes, regardless of moral objection to them. Many of them want to restrict or eliminate my access to firearms. They think that since me or you have plenty of money, we should have to turn over more of that money to the government than other people are required to. Just a few of the reasons I'm a conservative.

The interesting part of this is that traditional conservatism is rooted in a small government that only handles the 'bare necessities' through legislation. The push for Federal legislation (as the states most likely have the power to dictate these terms on their own) against gay marriage really runs contrary to this ideal, in my mind.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

On a side note, liberalism doesn't give everyone the freedom to do whatever they want. Liberal ideology decides that the government should invest your money for you. They decide that your money should go to public welfare causes, regardless of moral objection to them. Many of them want to restrict or eliminate my access to firearms. They think that since me or you have plenty of money, we should have to turn over more of that money to the government than other people are required to. Just a few of the reasons I'm a conservative.

I agree with what KSig RC said, and I'll add that you are painting with way too broad a brush here. What you say may describe some (many) liberals, but recourse to any dictionary shows it to be a severe overgeneralization. I checked quite a few dictionaries, including Mirriam-Webster Collegiate, which defines liberalism as:

a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties.

and the Random House Unabridged, which defines liberalism as:

political or social philosophy advocating the freedom of the individual, parliamentary systems of government, nonviolent modification of political, social, or economic institutions to assure unrestricted development in all spheres of human endeavor, and governmental guarantees of individual rights and civil liberties.

You are not describing the actual definition of liberalism. You are describing the connotation that many "conservatives" have worked hard over the last few decades to wrap the word in, admittedly readily aided by many liberals.

Just part of the reason why I think "liberal" and "conservative" have become almost meaningless with regard to really understanding politics. The Mad Hatter has taken them and declared them to mean whatever he says they mean.

[shinerbock]

No, I'm describing the "real" definition of liberalism. I'm not gonna get into a political thought or economy class on what is a "liberal." When I say liberal, I'm referring to the context of the left-right political landscape in America. The definitions of liberalism or neo classical liberalism have very little to do with how it is used in a modern American political debate. It'd be nice if this site wasn't so academic so that we could talk about ACTUAL things without being corrected by someone pointing out what everyone who went to college already knows. I would use the term "democrat" but then some of you "liberals" would say, hey, I'm not a democrat, I'm an independent...it just so happens that I'm pro taxes, pro choice, pro affirmative actions, etc, etc...They're just terms, folks. Sorry for the tangent, it just really annoys me.

As for conservatives being for smaller government, this is true, somewhat. Modern conservatives obviously aren't for an entirely bare-bones government (once again we meet the "what is a conservative" discussion). That being said, I don't think being against gay marriage necessarily means being for bigger government. Gay marriage hasn't been allowed in the past, so an amendment or statute is merely affirming the practice for the future. Its not really restrictive if its never been allowed...

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

No, I'm describing the "real" definition of liberalism.

No, you're really describing the "working" definition of liberal used by many Americans who describe themselves as "conservatives." There is a difference between that and the actual meaning of a word. And yes, they are just terms, but unfortunately, they are terms that are becoming meaningless and therefore relatively useless.

As for whether being againt gay marriage = a true conservative position, I think it probably does, despite the conservative bent toward small government. Among the hallmarks of conservatism are maintaining ("conserving") established tradition, social stability and established institutions, as well as gradual ("conservative") change.

[ann.coulter2]

Originally Posted by MysticCat81

I checked quite a few dictionaries, including Mirriam-Webster Collegiate, which defines liberalism as:

a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties.

and the Random House Unabridged, which defines liberalism as:

political or social philosophy advocating the freedom of the individual, parliamentary systems of government, nonviolent modification of political, social, or economic institutions to assure unrestricted development in all spheres of human endeavor, and governmental guarantees of individual rights and civil liberties.

Two examples of liberals defining liberalism.

Liberals say "individual" but mean "group". I.E. the poor, the workers, the elderly, the blacks, etc. One of their Bibles is "It takes a village to raise a child" by HC, and village means government (preferably Federal Govt.)

[GeekyPenguin]

Originally Posted by ann.coulter2

Two examples of liberals defining liberalism.

Liberals say "individual" but mean "group". I.E. the poor, the workers, the elderly, the blacks, etc. One of their Bibles is "It takes a village to raise a child" by HC, and village means government (preferably Federal Govt.)

Hi GA-Beta, how are you today?

and shinerbock, it's just as hard being a liberal at a conservative school.