Ohio State University suspends 37 Fraternities

[Kevin]

I agree with that and have on many occasions offered that bit of advice to anyone who would listen. The chapters which are continually being shuttered and reopened are old chapters. The reason they can't stay open is because alumni can be a negative influence. I have some perspective here because I am a founding member of my chapter which was not a recolonization. In hindsight, we founders put some pretty serious structural impediments in to prevent hazing and it has worked. We also have lots of local alumni including myself who make their presence known.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I agree with that and have on many occasions offered that bit of advice to anyone who would listen. The chapters which are continually being shuttered and reopened are old chapters. The reason they can't stay open is because alumni can be a negative influence.

I think this has a huge impact on certain chapters (of both fraternities and sororities). I've seen it first-hand. Even if chapters have turned over and want to change for the better, there are enough alumni around who want to ensure things remain the same. And this doesn't only apply to hazing (see: 2013 University of Alabama sorority recruitment).

We're organizations built on ritual and tradition, but there are some alumni that convince collegiates that the binge drinking and hazing practices of the last couple decades are the traditions that shouldn't die.

And if collegiates are convinced that ending these practices will suddenly make them "uncool" or change their social status on campus, there are so many more chances nowadays for that to happen and for word to rapidly spread across campus. Social media and sites like Greekrank propel these chapters into the spotlight and can quickly alter their ranking in their campus social hierarchy.

Sadly, these rankings are generally determined by other collegiate Greek members who sometimes (frequently?) encourage poor behavior.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ASTalumna06

I think this has a huge impact on certain chapters (of both fraternities and sororities). I've seen it first-hand. Even if chapters have turned over and want to change for the better, there are enough alumni around who want to ensure things remain the same. And this doesn't only apply to hazing (see: 2013 University of Alabama sorority recruitment).

We're organizations built on ritual and tradition, but there are some alumni that convince collegiates that the binge drinking and hazing practices of the last couple decades are the traditions that shouldn't die.

And if collegiates are convinced that ending these practices will suddenly make them "uncool" or change their social status on campus, there are so many more chances nowadays for that to happen and for word to rapidly spread across campus. Social media and sites like Greekrank propel these chapters into the spotlight and can quickly alter their ranking in their campus social hierarchy.

Sadly, these rankings are generally determined by other collegiate Greek members who sometimes (frequently?) encourage poor behavior.

I've even had to deal with those alums who are members of other chapters. I tell my actives that there are these alumni who will reach out to you on occasion, but they are members of xyz chapter and their values are different from ours.

I'm honestly very proud of the way our chapter and our alumni have handled negative outside influences. If something negative is happening, alumni communicate quickly and it's handled. We are all very anti-hazing, so we have never had the slightest problem. This is because we are a brand spanking new, less than 20 year old chapter which had the fortune of founders who bought into the no-hazing paradigm. Good luck to those chapters which have been hazing for 100+ years. I don't see that changing overnight.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I've even had to deal with those alums who are members of other chapters. I tell my actives that there are these alumni who will reach out to you on occasion, but they are members of xyz chapter and their values are different from ours.

I'm honestly very proud of the way our chapter and our alumni have handled negative outside influences. If something negative is happening, alumni communicate quickly and it's handled. We are all very anti-hazing, so we have never had the slightest problem. This is because we are a brand spanking new, less than 20 year old chapter which had the fortune of founders who bought into the no-hazing paradigm. Good luck to those chapters which have been hazing for 100+ years. I don't see that changing overnight.

Or perhaps it will? Ok, maybe not overnight, but these campus-wide suspensions are picking up. Perhaps these schools saying "enough is enough" will force organizations to take a long, hard look at how certain chapters are operating.

I'm not saying I completely agree with the way all of these suspensions are being handled (e.g. policies enforcing the restriction of chapter meetings), but people need to be held accountable. And as others have stated, the "innocent" chapters/members (of both fraternities and sororities) may not actually be so innocent.

[honeychile]

Originally Posted by Kevin

These kids want to be hazed, they want to binge drink and they expect to have those opportunities.

Originally Posted by Sciencewoman

This is EXACTLY what my son's freshman dorm roommate said last year. The fraternity he pledged lost their charter before he was even initiated. He got what he signed up for, but it didn't last long, of course.

I cannot tell you how many times the chapter I used to advise would say, "Oh, I wish I had been hazed!"

IMHO, when we lumped having to have pledge books signed and maybe a scavenger hunt into the same category as being forced into alcohol abuse and pledge line ups, the baby was thrown out with the bathwater. I think that blurring that line has done much more harm than good.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by honeychile

IMHO, when we lumped having to have pledge books signed and maybe a scavenger hunt into the same category as being forced into alcohol abuse and pledge line ups, the baby was thrown out with the bathwater. I think that blurring that line has done much more harm than good.

So much this. Initiation shouldn't be a participation trophy. Nor should it require degradation, illegal activities and humiliation. I don't think the space between those two ideas is a small space.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by honeychile

IMHO, when we lumped having to have pledge books signed and maybe a scavenger hunt into the same category as being forced into alcohol abuse and pledge line ups, the baby was thrown out with the bathwater. I think that blurring that line has done much more harm than good.

Originally Posted by Kevin

So much this. Initiation shouldn't be a participation trophy. Nor should it require degradation, illegal activities and humiliation. I don't think the space between those two ideas is a small space.

It becomes a small space when people turn something that's seemingly innocent into something illegal.

I participated in a scavenger hunt when I was pledging. We simply had to follow clues and find sisters around campus to answer questions about our sorority's history. It was fun. Then there was another chapter who packed way too many people into a car and drove around town stealing street signs and lawn ornaments.

Unfortunately, sometimes when you give someone an inch they take a mile. However, I do believe there could have been less drastic measures taken to ensure that illegal actions be avoided. A more gradual approach may have landed us on a happy medium.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by honeychile

IMHO, when we lumped having to have pledge books signed and maybe a scavenger hunt into the same category as being forced into alcohol abuse and pledge line ups, the baby was thrown out with the bathwater. I think that blurring that line has done much more harm than good.

AMEN!!

Every single activity in the pledge program I completed had a reason behind it, whether it was getting to know the sisters, learning to work as a team, or familiarizing ourselves with the Greek community. And we had a blast doing it! For many chapters, when the activities you so joyfully engaged in are labeled as "hazing" and you on the same level as groups who cause their pledges real physical and mental harm, it's in for a buck, in for a quarter.

[PhilTau]

Originally Posted by honeychile

I cannot tell you how many times the chapter I used to advise would say, "Oh, I wish I had been hazed!"

IMHO, when we lumped having to have pledge books signed and maybe a scavenger hunt into the same category as being forced into alcohol abuse and pledge line ups, the baby was thrown out with the bathwater. I think that blurring that line has done much more harm than good.

Getting kinda nostalgic here, but thinking back, there was not one thing I recall doing as a pledge that was NOT hazing. Even memorization of the creed, the founders names and the Greek alphabet were in some way turned into hazing activity. And pledge books? Don't get me started on what we did to them - hint, at the end of pledging all books were gathered up by the pledge trainer and burned. Our (and I would guess most fraternity) scavenger hunts were far from innocent affairs.

Certainly agree that there is a blurred line between innocent fun and people dying, but I would never trust a 20 year-old's judgment on this.

Edit: What I mean is I would not trust a 20 year-old's judgment to decide on what is innocent fun and what is hazing.

[33girl]

A good arbiter is "would you do this in front of your grandma? If not, it's hazing."

This however goes into Guys and Girls Are Different and I'd never presume to tell males of any age how to run their organizations.