Phi Kappa Psi at U of Virginia Voluntarily Suspends Activities

[1964Alum]

It would seem that we were definitely more street-wise back in the day. We also had all those hormones making powerful calls on us, but we seemed to have handled them with more maturity and discretion. Even when we were first coming of age well before we entered college. This was one of the goals of sex ed in school when our youngest son was in high school. It went well beyond the mechanics of sex and consequences of same into setting parameters and boundaries for relationships. The boys as well as the girls were schooled in how to decline a sexual overture that were not ready for/didn't want. And this was to the relief of MANY of the males, many of whom were under pressure themselves. They also had an excellent education in drug and alcohol use, starting in the case of our youngest in about the third grade in the Episcopal Day School he attended. This continued into his public middle and high schools. Our four -now all adults with families of their own- pretty much confined themselves to serial monogamy once they entered into sexual relationships, both our three sons and one daughter. I can't imagine our daughter ever putting up with what young women are experiencing today!

[OPhiAGinger]

This story popped up on NPR today. Apparently the RS author is being criticized because she deliberately did not seek comment from the alleged coordinator ("Drew") of the date rape. The author explained that "Jackie" begged the author not to contact "Drew". Realizing how emotionally fragile "Jackie" still was even two years after the incident, the author and her editor decided to abide by Jackie's request. The criticism focuses on the fact that she did not disclose that decision in the RS article.

Thoughts?

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by OPhiAGinger

This story popped up on NPR today. Apparently the RS author is being criticized because she deliberately did not seek comment from the alleged coordinator ("Drew") of the date rape. The author explained that "Jackie" begged the author not to contact "Drew". Realizing how emotionally fragile "Jackie" still was even two years after the incident, the author and her editor decided to abide by Jackie's request. The criticism focuses on the fact that she did not disclose that decision in the RS article.

Thoughts?

Richard Bradley has had the most extensive and in-depth coverage of the journalistic sub-story to the Rolling Stone story. His latest is quite interesting.

http://www.richardbradley.net/shotsinthedark/

The Washington Post, Hanna Rosin at Slate, Reason, and the New Republic are also covering. Hanna Rosin also has a podcast interview with the RS author.

When I first read the story, it struck me as improbable as it was presented. Not impossible, but improbable. The journalistic shortcuts and ensuing reaction of RS to criticism only add to that improbability. I would like to think that there are some missing facts that make the situation much more complicated/ambiguous, rather than an outright fabrication (ala Duke). IF it's been factually presented, it's not only a horrific gang rape, it's an almost unthinkable dereliction on the part of the grown ups in the room (the UVA administration) not to move heaven and earth to get the perps locked up where they belong. IF the allegations are true and I had a kid at UVA, I'd do everything I could to make sure all administrators with knowledge of the allegation lose their jobs.

That said, I'm very much aware of the FACT that the University is absolutely constrained by what they can and can't say to defend how they handled the situation. So, we've only heard one completely un-corroborated side of the story.
I'd like to wait until the facts come out fully before I pass final judgement.

[Low D Flat]

What astounds me is the overwhelming passiveness of this girl.

Same here. I don't get it. I have never in my life been too tired to push back if I didn't want to have sex with my boyfriend and he thought I had changed my mind. I can't even imagine being that tired.

[1964Alum]

In a story and filmed interview with one of the "friends" on a local TV station, the friend who was among those counseling Jackie not to report the incident or even go to the hospital for her injuries acknowledged that the story was true. Also that "Jackie" was still very fragile. She commended the support "Jackie" received from UVA in her healing, a departure from the stance of many there.

I was also hearing of these very shocking kinds of date rapes taking place at UVA as reported by the daughters of friends to their parents well before the RS article.

The President of the IFC there also painfully acknowledged that date rape within the fraternities there was a serious problem. I believe him and others.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by 1964Alum

In a story and filmed interview with one of the "friends" on a local TV station, the friend who was among those counseling Jackie not to report the incident or even go to the hospital for her injuries acknowledged that the story was true. Also that "Jackie" was still very fragile. She commended the support "Jackie" received from UVA in her healing, a departure from the stance of many there.

I was also hearing of these very shocking kinds of date rapes taking place at UVA as reported by the daughters of friends to their parents well before the RS article.

The President of the IFC there also painfully acknowledged that date rape within the fraternities there was a serious problem. I believe him and others.

Are you sure that the student interviewed on local TV was one of the 3 friends from the RS article? I have not seen any journalists mention that and many are trying to track down the specific people involved in the story. Was there any attempt in the interview to question the friend about why she didn't urge That Jackie needed to go the ER immediately? I have to say, that part of the story certainly caused my antenna to go up. It's just hard to fathom that a friend would respond so utterly callously to someone who has just been gang raped and beaten by seven men. And then I thought maybe I just don't realize how morally bankrupt the average college student has become. I asked my daughter and some of her friends about it when they were home for Thanksgiving. They were all adamant that it's the craziest thing they've ever heard of, and can't imagine it happened remotely the way it was reported. Again, it doesn't mean it's impossible that it happened exactly as described in the article. But what parent would pay to have their daughter in that environment?

[1964Alum]

Originally Posted by honorgal

Are you sure that the student interviewed on local TV was one of the 3 friends from the RS article? I have not seen any journalists mention that and many are trying to track down the specific people involved in the story. Was there any attempt in the interview to question the friend about why she didn't urge That Jackie needed to go the ER immediately? I have to say, that part of the story certainly caused my antenna to go up. It's just hard to fathom that a friend would respond so utterly callously to someone who has just been gang raped and beaten by seven men. And then I thought maybe I just don't realize how morally bankrupt the average college student has become. I asked my daughter and some of her friends about it when they were home for Thanksgiving. They were all adamant that it's the craziest thing they've ever heard of, and can't imagine it happened remotely the way it was reported. Again, it doesn't mean it's impossible that it happened exactly as described in the article. But what parent would pay to have their daughter in that environment?

Yes. This was a very short film clip on a local station. Not yellow journalism in the least. People here were aghast as well and wanted to know if it was true. The young lady was shown but her name not given. She did say that she had joined an unspecified sorority. The interviewer did not press her on why she had responded to her friend the way she had. There was another short clip of an unnamed sorority member at UVA where she was asked why a young woman wouldn't report such a horror. She replied that the Freshmen (or First
Years as they are called there) wouldn't report it as they were afraid it would hurt their chances of getting into a sorority. The Inter Sorority Council there posted pretty quickly that reporting a rape wouldn't adversely affect the chances of receiving a bid in the least. If the film clip is still available from the local station and I can find it I will post it.

[robinseggblue]

Originally Posted by honorgal

I appreciate your comments. What astounds me is the overwhelming passiveness of this girl. Even more astounding, that feminists are encouraging this kind of passive victim mentality in our next generation of women. It looks like a giant leap backwards.

Originally Posted by Low D Flat

Same here. I don't get it. I have never in my life been too tired to push back if I didn't want to have sex with my boyfriend and he thought I had changed my mind. I can't even imagine being that tired.

You may not understand it, but there is a freeze response, in addition to fight or flight. It is a biological response to a stressful/traumatic situation that is also seen in other animals.

http://www.lifecentre.uk.com/dealing..._response.html

http://www.joyfulheartfoundation.org...y-tonights-svu

Saying she was too "tired" makes me think she could have experienced tonic immobility (the freeze response) but is not able to articulate that more precisely.

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by robinseggblue

You may not understand it, but there is a freeze response, in addition to fight or flight. It is a biological response to a stressful/traumatic situation that is also seen in other animals.

http://www.lifecentre.uk.com/dealing..._response.html

http://www.joyfulheartfoundation.org...y-tonights-svu

Saying she was too "tired" makes me think she could have experienced tonic immobility (the freeze response) but is not able to articulate that more precisely.

She then says she pulled up her panties and went to sleep. Maybe she was tired. But we can hypothesize just about anything, I suppose.

As a thought experiment, what would you do if you were the college administrator assigned to adjudicate her claim that she was raped? Would you expel the student and declare him a rapist based on the set of facts this girl presented. Some lesser punishment?

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by robinseggblue

I can't say, I wasn't there. I was just presenting a possibility for those who expressed they didn't "understand" how a victim could not fight back in the case that she didn't want to have sex.

I don't understand how you're expecting anyone to judge a case from a couple of sentences printed in a newspaper article and I find that lacking in good sense. Who is anyone on here to judge what a proper punishment should be in a situation we are neither part of nor know the full facts of?

What an interesting response.

This is what we are all being asked to do with the Rolling Stone article. And the hundreds (thousands?) of other articles that insist our universities are failing their students with their responses.

Your line of thinking seems to be: "she had slept with him before and she got into bed with him (how could she expect him not to want sex?), she said no but then didn't resist when he tried again...therefore not deserving of the classification of rape?" Ok. Cool story bro.

No, my line of thinking is this: It's an article that is clearly sympathetic to the alarm some are raising about rape culture at Swarthmore. Journalists doing this style of story usually lead with their most persuasive allegation, and it's clearly her story, we don't ever hear his side. So this is the view of the facts that best supports her rape claim. And that's all there is? Personally, I'd have a very difficult time expelling him from college and calling him a rapist, based on that evidence. Your mileage may vary, which is why I asked.

We can easily stipulate that these are the only facts an administrator has to base a decision on and that both students sound credible and believable at in-person interviews. its a thought experiment, remember?

Edited to add: just so I'm clear...My opinion does not then automatically mean I think this woman is lying. She may sincerely believe she was raped. But if this is rape, it happens in millions upon millions of bedrooms all across the country every night. (yes, Dr.Phil, I know, I know...its the patriarchy.)

[1964Alum]

I did ask one mother and father with a daughter there why their daughter continued to go to UVA. They said that their daughter didn't want to leave because the specialized program of what she was studying wasn't available elsewhere. She is an upperclassman but I don't remember which year. They have been sick with anxiety, of course, even before the RS story. They insisted that she attend one of the safety on campus workshops and buy a can of pepper spray to carry with her wherever she goes. They were also planning on buying a police whistle to carry on a cord around her neck.

Our daughter, our oldest, got her Masters at UVA and is on the adjunct faculty teaching grad students. She hadn't personally heard of anything that has been going on there so asked some colleagues who teach undergrads. They confirmed for her that the severity of the problem there was true. And then got involved in the alumni response. Both as an alum and faculty member but also as a certified mediator. She has very grave concerns about the way these matters have been handled there.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by 1964Alum

They insisted that she attend one of the safety on campus workshops and buy a can of pepper spray to carry with her wherever she goes. They were also planning on buying a police whistle to carry on a cord around her neck.

SMH. This is the definition of not getting it. That is, still thinking of "rapist" solely as "stranger who lurks in the bushes and jumps out and attacks you."

[honorgal]

Originally Posted by 33girl

SMH. This is the definition of not getting it. That is, still thinking of "rapist" solely as "stranger who lurks in the bushes and jumps out and attacks you."

While I understand the point you are making and agree that this rape fact pattern is much more rare these days, I think Charlottesville would not be exactly comforted by that fact right now, due to the Hannah Graham abduction and murder. It's too fresh in people's minds.

[1964Alum]

Originally Posted by 33girl

SMH. This is the definition of not getting it. That is, still thinking of "rapist" solely as "stranger who lurks in the bushes and jumps out and attacks you."

This DOES happen! There was an incident on the news just the other day about a woman who was attacked just this way. Of course I "get it". Rape can and does take place in many, many different situations. But I also "get" having some common sense about what kinds of situations you expose yourself to as a woman. And what the attendant risks are. Also what self-protective measures we as women can take. IMO to think otherwise is very naive and unrealistic.

[DrPhil]

This is an unfortunate discussion.

I hope people realize that men also precipitate (which isn't victim blaming) their own victimization as well as precipitating many circumstances in which they are accused of crimes. Yet and still, people tend not to preach to men about the behaviors that increase the likelihood of such incidents.

But people love to preach to women. It is absolutely sickening.