School Shooting Newtown CT

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ZTAngel

So, basically, you're saying let's not do anything at all to at least try to prevent these types of things from happening? I know you always like to play devil's advocate, but I think you're being completely abrasive and insensitive.

You should look at my location indicator and know that I have some personal experience in this area. I drive by the OKC bombing memorial several times a day, office 3-4 blocks as the crow flies from there and actually heard and felt that blast, not to mention knowing some of the victims. My heart goes out to the victims of this tragedy, but I'm not going to support emotional legislation because that's what some think is apparently the sensitive and non-abrasive thing to do. For the record, I think the rulemaking going on right now with regard to ammonium nitrate sales is ridiculous.

What happened on Friday is a huge tragedy....probably bigger than anything we've seen in years in that 20 innocent children are being loaded into tiny little coffins. Luckily, it seems the majority of people disagree with you. Politicians who once received high ratings from the NRA are coming around to the idea of serious reform.

Define "serious" reform. In my memory, every reform we've had over recent years has been an expansion of gun rights and every "serious" reform as noted by MC, was worked around by the gun industry so quickly that its effect was negligible.

Will it prevent these instances from happening every single time? No. But it hopefully will make it a little more difficult for a maniac to commit this type of crime. I don't understand how anyone could advocate not doing anything at all just because it won't prevent every instance.

Okay, let's look at this case, what law would prevent someone from stealing weapons from their mother who lawfully possessed those weapons? The SOB broke multiple laws doing what he did. That really didn't seem to matter much to him.

In reality, any sort of restrictions are going to make it harder on that family in some rural Oklahoma county from being able to defend itself when someone is trying to break in through the back door at 3 in the morning.

[ZTAngel]

Originally Posted by Kevin

You should look at my location indicator and know that I have some personal experience in this area. I drive by the OKC bombing memorial several times a day, office 3-4 blocks as the crow flies from there and actually heard and felt that blast, not to mention knowing some of the victims. My heart goes out to the victims of this tragedy, but I'm not going to support emotional legislation because that's what some think is apparently the sensitive and non-abrasive thing to do. For the record, I think the rulemaking going on right now with regard to ammonium nitrate sales is ridiculous.

I don't deny that you have sympathy for the OKC victims, but saying you have "personal experience" as to how Newtown people feel just because you're from OK is a poor example. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but the way you worded it really rubbed me the wrong way. It's like my friends from Florida (or me since I'm from FL) saying stuff like, "Oh, I'm from Florida so I know how the victims of Hurricane Sandy or Katrina feel." No. Their homes were never destroyed, their loved ones never died. Just because they've been through a hurricane or two doesn't mean that they have "personal experience" in that area.

Define "serious" reform. In my memory, every reform we've had over recent years has been an expansion of gun rights and every "serious" reform as noted by MC, was worked around by the gun industry so quickly that its effect was negligible.

So we shouldn't at least attempt to discuss anything because we've failed in the past?

Okay, let's look at this case, what law would prevent someone from stealing weapons from their mother who lawfully possessed those weapons? The SOB broke multiple laws doing what he did. That really didn't seem to matter much to him.

In reality, any sort of restrictions are going to make it harder on that family in some rural Oklahoma county from being able to defend itself when someone is trying to break in through the back door at 3 in the morning.

As I said before, any kind of reform won't prevent every single crime from occurring. Let's say we enact reform that limited the amount of firearms a single person could purchase in a year. Or limited the amount of rounds of ammunition the firearm can hold. Or some kind of mental health act was enacted. Right there we may have prevented VA Tech, Aurora and Tucson. May have being the keywords. I'm not saying it would have prevented it, but I don't see why we don't at least try. We owe it to the victims and their families to at least try to keep this from happening instead of throwing up our hands and saying, "Welp, we've never been successful in the past so let's just do nothing at all."

I have a child who is not much younger than those little children who died on Friday. I'm passionate about this because I see him in this tragedy...and it's scary.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ZTAngel

I don't deny that you have sympathy for the OKC victims, but saying you have "personal experience" as to how Newtown people feel just because you're from OK is a poor example. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but the way you worded it really rubbed me the wrong way. It's like my friends from Florida (or me since I'm from FL) saying stuff like, "Oh, I'm from Florida so I know how the victims of Hurricane Sandy or Katrina feel." No. Their homes were never destroyed, their loved ones never died. Just because they've been through a hurricane or two doesn't mean that they have "personal experience" in that area.

I heard the blast, felt the blast, knew victims, my father was in a courtroom in which the windows imploded into the courtroom. Our community lost the children in the daycare, so empathy. I don't really care how you feel about what I'm saying, (lack of empathy) my point is that empathy is a dumb reason to write laws which are really solutions in search of problems.

As I said before, any kind of reform won't prevent every single crime from occurring. Let's say we enact reform that limited the amount of firearms a single person could purchase in a year. Or limited the amount of rounds of ammunition the firearm can hold. Or some kind of mental health act was enacted. Right there we may have prevented VA Tech, Aurora and Tucson. May have being the keywords. I'm not saying it would have prevented it, but I don't see why we don't at least try. We owe it to the victims and their families to at least try to keep this from happening instead of throwing up our hands and saying, "Welp, we've never been successful in the past so let's just do nothing at all."

I have a child who is not much younger than those little children who died on Friday. I'm passionate about this because I see him in this tragedy...and it's scary.

His chances of being struck by lightening or killed by a shark are exponentially higher than being shot at grade school. Creating strict new laws in response to this is like trying to swat a fly with an H-bomb.

[ZTAngel]

Originally Posted by Kevin

His chances of being struck by lightening or killed by a shark are exponentially higher than being shot at grade school. Creating strict new laws in response to this is like trying to swat a fly with an H-bomb.

Ok. I'm done with you.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ZTAngel

Ok. I'm done with you.

For the love of Christ, having children does not give you magical insight here. In fact, it makes you a lot less objective about things. You're obviously very emotionally connected to this tragedy, so maybe, perhaps, you're not in the best place to be calling for changing the rules for everyone else. This year, there were 40 killings overall, which is probably an aberration considering last year there were 8.

Something which affects 8 to 40 out of 300 million people is not a good reason to spend billions on heightened security, regulations, etc. Especially when our previous experience is that none of those things help.

Heck, this school had just substantially upgraded its security. Would you suggest that this single incident is a reason to have metal detectors and security guards and bulletproof doors at every elementary school in the U.S.?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I don't really care how you feel about what I'm saying, (lack of empathy) my point is that empathy is a dumb reason to write laws which are really solutions in search of problems.

This, I think, is where the rub comes in. I'll absolutely agree that empathy and sympathy are not the reasons to write laws.

But I don't think anyone is in search of a problem. There is without question a problem, and it is not in the least off the mark to discuss what can reasonably be done to make it less of a problem.

Not every suggestion will be reasonable. Not every suggestion will be feasible. Not every suggestion will be effective. That's no reason not to have the discussion.

[ZTAngel]

Originally Posted by Kevin

For the love of Christ, having children does not give you magical insight here.

Never said it did. My problem is that you can't seem to make a point without coming off as a condescending douche. See above as an example. Hence, I was done.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

But I don't think anyone is in search of a problem. There is without question a problem, and it is not in the least off the mark to discuss what can reasonably be done to make it less of a problem.

Exactly.