E-Mails Suggest Paterno Role in Silence on Sandusky

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by 33girl

My prediction:

Every cent of scholarship money lost is made up by PSU alums and private scholarships are created (thus opening the door to more chicanery if they get into the wrong peoples' hands).

Take that one to the bank.

They would if they are dumb. That WOULD lead to the death penalty if they were caught. You do something that stupid on probation, and you deserve what you get.

[33girl]

I didn't think there was anything to prevent someone from instituting a privately funded scholarship. I'm not talking under the table. Maybe I'm understanding the "scholarships" that are being removed incorrectly...I thought they meant ones that come straight from the NCAA.

[AXOmom]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I didn't think there was anything to prevent someone from instituting a privately funded scholarship. I'm not talking under the table. Maybe I'm understanding the "scholarships" that are being removed incorrectly...I thought they meant ones that come straight from the NCAA.

The NCAA isn't taking away scholarship money (that comes from each school's athletic fund - not the NCAA), they are taking away the number of scholarships Penn State can give out to football players. Under NCAA rules, Division 1 schools can only have 85 scholarship players on their roster each season (to keep the playing field even). Penn State will be limited to 65 scholarship players from 2014-2017, so four seasons. The alums could donate $10 million to the athletic fund tomorrow to be put towards scholarships and it wouldn't matter - they will only be able to offer 65.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by AXOmom

The NCAA isn't taking away scholarship money (that comes from each school's athletic fund - not the NCAA), they are taking away the number of scholarships Penn State can give out to football players. Under NCAA rules, Division 1 schools can only have 85 scholarship players on their roster each season (to keep the playing field even). Penn State will be limited to 65 scholarship players from 2014-2017, so four seasons. The alums could donate $10 million to the athletic fund tomorrow to be put towards scholarships and it wouldn't matter - they will only be able to offer 65.

I think I heard as well that the students on scholarship get to keep them, they just don't get to play football.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I think I heard as well that the students on scholarship get to keep them, they just don't get to play football.

I hope that's the case. I mean, sure, if they wanted to play professionally they might not be able to, but at least they're still getting money toward their degree.

[AXOmom]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I think I heard as well that the students on scholarship get to keep them, they just don't get to play football.

Maybe I'm missing something, but why wouldn't they get to play football? They still have a football team and they will still play in the fall - they just can't play in a bowl game.

The scholarship limitations don't go into effect until 2014, so they have time to get their numbers down - they don't have to kick 20 guys off the team - they just can't sign many next year or over the next few years.

Granted, they may have some guys who don't want to play anymore after all of this and still want to stay at Penn State.

The current players can also transfer without penalty meaning they can play immediately at another school if they can find another school who will take them.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by AXOmom

The scholarship limitations don't go into effect until 2014, so they have time to get their numbers down - they don't have to kick 20 guys off the team - they just can't sign many next year or over the next few years.

I thought they had to gradually cut...10 off next year, and then 20 the following. I guess you are right, though, they could just wait for guys to graduate and not replace them.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I didn't think there was anything to prevent someone from instituting a privately funded scholarship. I'm not talking under the table. Maybe I'm understanding the "scholarships" that are being removed incorrectly...I thought they meant ones that come straight from the NCAA.

Nothing comes "straight from the NCAA" - all athletic scholarships are paid for by the school/donors/gate receipts/etc.

You can make as many 'endowed' scholarships as you'd like, but you can only have 85 scholarship players on the roster - otherwise, every QB in the nation would magically have academic talents that earn a non-athletic scholarship.

Some sports that have "divided" scholarships (for example, baseball teams get around 12 scholarships for 25ish players) have slightly different rules, but on the whole, there's no real differentiation in how the student receives the aid.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I think I heard as well that the students on scholarship get to keep them, they just don't get to play football.

I'm pretty sure you're thinking of the ruling from the NCAA that any student who wished to leave the PSU football team could retain his scholarship as long as he met the other requirements set forth by rule - so if somebody said "hell with this" PSU can't cut them and take back the scholarship (as they usually can with any other one).

It's possible for football teams to 'cut' players from scholarship, but it's not the most common practice, for a variety of reasons that aren't all that important here - but the NCAA stepped in and is allowing players to voluntarily leave the roster, but retain their scholarship.

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

I thought they had to gradually cut...10 off next year, and then 20 the following. I guess you are right, though, they could just wait for guys to graduate and not replace them.

This is actually how it works out - the penalty is 20 total scholarships, starting with 10 initially, applied over the entire 4 years. They can't really just wait it out - it's 10 now, 10 more the next year, then they're capped at 65 the two after that.

Signing classes are limited 25 players up to the 85 total (which often happens due to attrition), so you can see why the penalty is considered very hard on a team - you're losing 40%+ of two classes, which might have a 50% "hit rate" anyway if you're lucky. That's without considering who would even want to sign the first few (non-bowl) years.

In many ways, PSU was crippled as a football program, but in a way that doesn't affect the rest of the Big10 or other teams PSU plays. Whether or not that's a good thing is very much up for debate.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by AXOmom

The current players can also transfer without penalty meaning they can play immediately at another school if they can find another school who will take them.

I think this as a consolation prize is total bullshit. Doesn't everyone pretty much have their teams together and their scholarships given out at this point? It would be a little different if this was all happening in December or January but the timing for this to be actually helpful just isn't there.

OK, I understand re the scholarships. But what if Freddy Football Freshman gets drafted without a scholarship, and a good-hearted citizen in Freddy's hometown wants to set up a "Send Freddy To School" page on Facebook and gets more money than bullied schoolbus monitor? Will they get penalized for that? Will it matter if the good-hearted citizen is a PSU alumnus?

Even after all this, I'm betting that there are still people who would rather go into debt and play for Penn State than get a scholarship and play elsewhere. I'm sure that's not a unique matter for any school that has generations of families attending there.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Doesn't everyone pretty much have their teams together and their scholarships given out at this point?

Yes, but the NCAA has made allowances for that. If another school was interested in a Penn State player (and the player was also interested in that other school), that school could exceed its allotted number of scholarships to make room for the Penn State guy. The school would have to make up for that overage next year, but for schools that may not have much depth in a particular position, it might very well be worth it.

From what I gather from reading other coaches reactions, many are evaluating their teams depth chart and looking at the Penn State roster to see if there's a player who could help them out. ETA: Meaning, even though the teams are already together and scholarships assigned, there will still be opportunities for Penn State players to get some meaningful playing time.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Essentially, it's a relic of the fact that students will have 5 years to complete 4 years of eligibility, so the reduction takes place both yearly and overall.

That makes sense.

Originally Posted by 33girl

I think this as a consolation prize is total bullshit. Doesn't everyone pretty much have their teams together and their scholarships given out at this point? It would be a little different if this was all happening in December or January but the timing for this to be actually helpful just isn't there.

OK, I understand re the scholarships. But what if Freddy Football Freshman gets drafted without a scholarship, and a good-hearted citizen in Freddy's hometown wants to set up a "Send Freddy To School" page on Facebook and gets more money than bullied schoolbus monitor? Will they get penalized for that? Will it matter if the good-hearted citizen is a PSU alumnus?

Even after all this, I'm betting that there are still people who would rather go into debt and play for Penn State than get a scholarship and play elsewhere. I'm sure that's not a unique matter for any school that has generations of families attending there.

What about walk-ons with academic scholarships?

[AXOmom]

Originally Posted by 33girl

I think this as a consolation prize is total bullshit. Doesn't everyone pretty much have their teams together and their scholarships given out at this point? It would be a little different if this was all happening in December or January but the timing for this to be actually helpful just isn't there.

OK, I understand re the scholarships. But what if Freddy Football Freshman gets drafted without a scholarship, and a good-hearted citizen in Freddy's hometown wants to set up a "Send Freddy To School" page on Facebook and gets more money than bullied schoolbus monitor? Will they get penalized for that? Will it matter if the good-hearted citizen is a PSU alumnus?

Even after all this, I'm betting that there are still people who would rather go into debt and play for Penn State than get a scholarship and play elsewhere. I'm sure that's not a unique matter for any school that has generations of families attending there.

I don't necessarily disagree with you about "the consolation prize being BS". NCAA sanctions aren't usually very fair to the guys playing on that team at the time who rarely had anything to do with the reason the team is being punished in the first place, but this isn't the first time that's happened and it won't be the last, so Penn State's players aren't unique in that regard which, I know, isn't going to make it sting for them any less. Personally, while I'm sorry for them, that pales in comparison to the pity I feel for the victims, and if this is what it takes for every other coach and school administrator to get the message that some things are bigger than your school and your football team's reputation - so be it.

As Sydney K pointed out, the NCAA has, in this case, tried to do everything I think they can, under the circumstances, to give these players options. Other teams can pick them up without hurting their limits this year (schools like USC, which have their own scholarships limitations due to sanctions are an exception- but they still have two scholarships to offer and are already talking to PSU RB recruit). They will have to count them against next year's total.

K Sig RC and TSteven have a better understanding of the NCAA rules and regulations than I do (I love college football and have gotten familiar with some of the rules and regulations, but I don't know a lot of the ins and outs), so they can correct me if I'm mistaken on this, but an alum setting up a scholarship for a specific kid who then walks on to the football team would be an NCAA violation (providing improper benefits). If a walk-on receives financial aid from a school and stays on a team, for instance, they don't count against the total their first year, but they do if they continue on the team a second year. Again, I'll defer K Sig RC and TSteven on this, but I would think if this could be done, teams would have been doing it for awhile to get around the total limits.

There may be some players who have always dreamed of playing at Penn State and who will choose to go there, walk-on, and play there even if it means going into debt, and if so, hey, kudos to them, but honestly I can think of very few instances, outside of a Harvard or Yale or a school with a religous emphasis (Notre Dame, BYU) where a talented kid with other good options would choose to go as a walk on, particularly if it meant four years of student debt, rather than take a scholarship offer to another school and I can't think of many parents, regardless of how many generations went to that school, that would let them. Now, if the only other offers they had were to much smaller programs or vastly inferior schools and they knew they had no NFL potential, they just wanted to try and play football while they were in school because they love playing - then I could see that scenario, but that player is unlikely to be of much help to Penn State in the Big 10.

A player might get fed a line and sit on the bench, but that's always a risk whenever you sign an LOI. It might have happened at Penn State without the sanctions. A college football player usually knows that's a possibility. All you can do is look at the coach's record, talk to his players, and look at who your position competition is then make your call.