ITT We Discuss Theology

[KSUViolet06]

Some random theological musings:

I believe that Jesus called for people to care about ALL of people's needs.

When people were hungry, he didn't just preach to them, he fed them.

It bugs me when people say "well feeding the homeless is great, but they need Jesus."

Um, feeding homeless people IS Jesus. I feel like we minister to people through the things we do to help them, not just by telling them about the Gospel.

Thoughts?

[SWTXBelle]

I like St. Francis' take on it: "Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words."

In my experience, Christians ARE concerned about feeding the hungry, helping the homeless, etc. Largest private charitable orgs in the U.S.? The Salvation Army and Catholic Charities USA. On a smaller scale, I know here in Katy we have the Katy Christian Ministries, which many congregations support, not to mention all the individual initiatives of Christian and non-Christian religious bodies.

A fellow OLOW parishioner ( and mother of a former h.s. student - it's a small world) started this incredible org - http://www.centerforrenewal.org/Site/Welcome.html

[ForeverRoses]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I like St. Francis' take on it: "Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words."

In my experience, Christians ARE concerned about feeding the hungry, helping the homeless, etc. Largest private charitable orgs in the U.S.? The Salvation Army and Catholic Charities USA. On a smaller scale, I know here in Katy we have the Katy Christian Ministries, which many congregations support, not to mention all the individual initiatives of Christian and non-Christian religious bodies.

A fellow OLOW parishioner ( and mother of a former h.s. student - it's a small world) started this incredible org - http://www.centerforrenewal.org/Site/Welcome.html

My old priest in Ohio always hated the line at the end of mass that says "the mass has ended, go out and love and serve the world". He maintained that it should be "the mass never ends, it must be lived. Go out and love and serve the world". However the RC church isn't big on priests changing the words...

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by ForeverRoses

My old priest in Ohio always hated the line at the end of mass that says "the mass has ended, go out and love and serve the world". He maintained that it should be "the mass never ends, it must be lived. Go out and love and serve the world". However the RC church isn't big on priests changing the words...

We had a pastor whose charge was always "We have feasted at the Table of our Lord, but we cannot stay here. We must go and sit among strangers and share with them, in word and deed, the love of Christ."

I always liked that.

[SWTXBelle]

Our mass ends with "Let us go in peace to love and serve the Lord." "Thanks be to God!"

I interpret "love and serve the Lord" as including loving and serving all those in need, so there you go.

[barbino]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Some random theological musings:

I believe that Jesus called for people to care about ALL of people's needs.

When people were hungry, he didn't just preach to them, he fed them.

It bugs me when people say "well feeding the homeless is great, but they need Jesus."

Um, feeding homeless people IS Jesus. I feel like we minister to people through the things we do to help them, not just by telling them about the Gospel.

Thoughts?

I think that you are dead-on correct. Jesus tells us to feed the homeless, it is part of helping those less fortunate. Our church serves a meal after the service each Sunday. The church van goes to a shelter & picks up several people to take them to the church for service & the meal. We also have homeless from the YMCA show up often if not regularly. The pastor considers ministry to the homeless as a big part of the church. This includes social services like counseling, helping them do laundry, clothes distribution, etc. Taking care of the homeless is a social responsibility and also part of a Christian lifestyle.
I don't want to sound too preachy; sometimes I think that helping my husband get through seminary consumes my life lately.

[Cen1aur 1963]

Originally Posted by KSUViolet06

Some random theological musings:

I believe that Jesus called for people to care about ALL of people's needs.

When people were hungry, he didn't just preach to them, he fed them.

It bugs me when people say "well feeding the homeless is great, but they need Jesus."

Um, feeding homeless people IS Jesus. I feel like we minister to people through the things we do to help them, not just by telling them about the Gospel.

Thoughts?

I feel you and I think that's cool as hell that you feel this way. But you can't help everybody, even some homeless folks. Would you help somebody who didn't want to help themselves? Because that's how it is with some folks. I don't think Jesus helped folks who didn't want to help themselves.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

You know I thought similar, but I accompanied her last year when she did it and I was impressed. At least one person was driven to tears by the experience, and we had several people said that they were happy we were there because work obligations prevented them from going to the ash Wednesday services at their churches. And a lot of those who refused actually talked to us to find out more about what we were doing.

On another note I got my Prayerbook and the Guide today and I am excited for both.

Hope it goes as well this year. And enjoy the new books.

Originally Posted by Cen1aur 1963

I feel you and I think that's cool as hell that you feel this way. But you can't help everybody, even some homeless folks. Would you help somebody who didn't want to help themselves? Because that's how it is with some folks. I don't think Jesus helped folks who didn't want to help themselves.

Lots of people, starting with Aesop, have said "God helps those who help themselves," but Jesus wasn't one of them, nor is it anywhere else in Scripture.

It seems to me that the heart of the Gospel, and what Jesus's ministry was all about, is that none of us are able to help ourselves and none of us deserve God's grace, and yet he freely offers it to all.

If we deserved it, even if only because we wanted to help ourselves, it wouldn't be grace.

[Cen1aur 1963]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

It seems to me that the heart of the Gospel, and what Jesus's ministry was all about, is that none of us are able to help ourselves and none of us deserve God's grace, and yet he freely offers it to all.

If we deserved it, even if only because we wanted to help ourselves, it wouldn't be grace.

I feel you on this 100%. What's confusing to me, and has always been, because no one has ever been able to answer the question. But some folks believe Jesus is God. God is the "Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit", which is what I've always been raised to believe growing up. What trips me out about that is the church I attend now, when our pastor baptizes someone, he says "I baptize you in the name of Jesus." When I was growing up, our pastor at my childhood church would say "I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost". Which is why I grew up believing that if he is all three, which some folks believe, then if God only helps those who help themselves, then wouldn't Jesus? Then it says in Scripture that the only way to the Father is through Chirst. Kind of what you were saying to a degree. Not to get all long winded here, but folks like to interpret the Bible in their own way. I say that because with my current pastor, I told him what my childhood pastor used to say when he would baptize folks. He said that's not correct. You baptize in the name of Jesus. So here I am thinking wtf, -two pastors practicing from the same Bible with two different thought processes. You feel my confusion? It's just tripped out, to me.

[dekeguy]

As a suggestion, you might want to read carefully the Nicene Creed and the Apostles Creed. Give it a bit of thought and then lets kick this around a bit.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Cen1aur 1963

I feel you on this 100%. What's confusing to me, and has always been, because no one has ever been able to answer the question. But some folks believe Jesus is God. God is the "Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit", which is what I've always been raised to believe growing up. What trips me out about that is the church I attend now, when our pastor baptizes someone, he says "I baptize you in the name of Jesus."

A Oneness Pentecostal church?

What does your current pastor say about Matthew 28:19?

When I was growing up, our pastor at my childhood church would say "I baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost". Which is why I grew up believing that if he is all three, which some folks believe, then if God only helps those who help themselves, then wouldn't Jesus?

Like I said, though, "God helps those who help themselves" may be a popular saying, but isn't anywhere in the Bible (even though many, many people think it is). It is not at all what the Bible teaches and I think many if not most theologians and Bible scholars would say that it is actually contrary to what the Bible teaches, and certainly to the message of the Gospel.

Originally Posted by dekeguy

As a suggestion, you might want to read carefully the Nicene Creed and the Apostles Creed. Give it a bit of thought and then lets kick this around a bit.

For many of us, the Nicene and Apostles creeds are normative and something of a bedrock, but there're lots of Christians for whom they are not and for whom any creed is suspect. Saying "study the creeds and then we'll talk" is essentially saying "adopt my perspective and then we'll talk."

[SWTXBelle]

Studying the creeds would be a good place to start to understand long-standing interpretations of the Trinity, whether or not the reader actually ascribes to them.

[Little Dragon]

I have been reading from past posts and write here my contributions to three of them. This is only what I think and what I was taught, conceding the fact that I might be wrong.

Baptism:
Both formulas are from the Bible

"Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19) vs.
“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins” (Acts 2:38)

[Sorry for the quotes from different translations of the Bible, I google them quickly.]

The first one has been the official formula from the beginning of the Church. The second one means "by the authority of Jesus," assuming the first formula is to be used. Yet, the latter has been taken out of context by different groups at different times for different reasons. Also, although it is not a valid argument, the first one are Jesus' words; the second one are Peter's. Who do we believe?

"God helps those who help themselves"
MisticCat explained it pretty well, so I won't repeat what has been said. I'll add that this is very dangerous phrase.

First, God is not limited by anything, including men's unwillingnes to help himself.

Second, I've actually heard people, in the same line of thought, quoting Paul when he says that those who don't work, don't eat. This is said in a very specific context and need not be taken out of it.

Finally, let's look at what it is being said behind the words: "Since God help those who help themselves, if you are in a hole, it means you are not helping yourself." There goes any help to Africa, any help to those in need anywhere in the world. "If they had helped themselves, God would help them."

Since the phrase is used as an excuse against helping others that may look lazy, I add my opinion, without being accused of being naive and always taking the much needed precautions so that it doesn't happen, a Christian should always prefer to be disappointed by trusting (even though some undeserving individuals might take advantage) than be surprised by doubting (and so doubting others worthy of such trust). The same can be apply to the help we provide. Some might abuse, most won't. Paraphrasing an Ignatian thought: I did not start helping others so that they may abuse of me, neither will I stop helping others because of it.

Creeds
The Niceno-Constantinopolitan creed was written to answer the heresies as they arose (Arianism > Jesus is not God) (Monophysitism > Jesus has only one nature and that is the Divine), etc. It was first stated at the Nicaea Council, and later confirmed at the Constantinopolitan Council, in order to clarify the misunderstandings which gave place to the heresies. The Apostle's Creed, probably older although its oldest written account is dated much later than the Niceno, states what Christians believed, probably taken phrases from the Bible, but allowing for the misunderstandings from which the heresies were born.

Now, I've always wondered why the Apostle's creed mentions "the communion of Saints" while the Niceno-Constantinopolitan doesn't. I know that the latter include it implicitly, but still.

[dekeguy]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

For many of us, the Nicene and Apostles creeds are normative and something of a bedrock, but there're lots of Christians for whom they are not and for whom any creed is suspect. Saying "study the creeds and then we'll talk" is essentially saying "adopt my perspective and then we'll talk."

==================================================

No, actually what I was SUGGESTING was a read of the creeds and an invitation to discuss. I find them useful as a point of reference but my comment was not intended to be in the form of "adopt my perspective and then we'll talk". It was a suggestion to propose a framework for discussion. What works for me does not imply that it works for everyone else but it does offer a starting point from which a concensus might or might not be achieved.

[Cen1aur 1963]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

A Oneness Pentecostal church?

What does your current pastor say about Matthew 28:19?

It's a non-denominational church. I'll have to ask my pastor about that and see what he says. I'll post it when I catch up with him. That's good shit, though.