The Confederate Flag

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by *winter*

As for the question, would someone rip it down in a Northern black neighborhood? I'm willing to bet yes. People up north rip down signs for the "other guy" in politics, they rip down and/or TP signs for the rival sports team...I'm not saying I agree but I can see that haopening. Heck, immured enough to go hang one inthe neighboring town, on an abandoned house, and see how long it lasts...

It depends on the context just like it does in the south.

Northerners love to get cocky and pretend as though these dynamics somehow get lost the further north you drive. In fact, nonsoutherners period like to pretend that is the case. Segregation, racism, discrimination, and overall inequality persist in every region of this country. That is the case regardless of how many people claim they don't see it happening in their own background and how badass people pretend to be about whooping someone's ass or tearing down flags. People in every region (that includes the billy badass northerners) see things they disagree with everyday and have to learn how to ignore things that offend them everyday. Whooptywooooo.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Northerners love to get cocky and pretend as though these dynamics somehow get lost the further north you drive. In fact, nonsoutherners period like to pretend that is the case. Segregation, racism, discrimination, and overall inequality persist in every region of this country.

Right - Dorchester and Queensbridge and West Philly and Camden still exist, even if our shit doesn't stink. There's no reason to assume superiority based on a wholly-imagined line on a map.

In fact, so-called "northern" racism might be more pernicious in some ways - I can imagine scenarios in which one might prefer overt, in-your-face racism over subtle institutional racism.

That is to say, no matter what I think of ol' Rebel Jack, it doesn't change the racial composition of the hotel staff (from cleaning to front desk) where I'm staying.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Right - Dorchester and Queensbridge and West Philly and Camden still exist, even if our shit doesn't stink. There's no reason to assume superiority based on a wholly-imagined line on a map.

In fact, so-called "northern" racism might be more pernicious in some ways - I can imagine scenarios in which one might prefer overt, in-your-face racism over subtle institutional racism.

That is to say, no matter what I think of ol' Rebel Jack, it doesn't change the racial composition of the hotel staff (from cleaning to front desk) where I'm staying.

Precisely although the overt and covert were always combined.

I am in the school of thought that the in-your-face only existed to reinforce and solidify the institutional. The best way to persistently exclude groups of people is to identify and target them, label them, and mistreat them so they will be socialized as the power minority. The economic backdrop of slavery (across societies) and servitude targeted groups of people who were easily identified as "the other." The system and structure were already being mobilized. Now they just needed to make the people believe it all--get the individual-level dynamics. That's how you can still have people (nationally and internationally) who are still lost in the sauce centuries later.

[*winter*]

No one is saying northern racism isn't an issue. Obviously it is, since the educational disparities between minorities here are astounding in some places. Our cities are a disgrace- we are home to places where blacks have higher unemployment rates then they did pre civil rights movement. Also not saying that rippig down a flag in any way changes those disparities...

I'm willing to bet that a white person would not have the (insert word here) to fly that flag in a predominantly black neighborhood.

I'm also willing to bet if you hung that in the "black" neighborhods in Camden or Philly it would be an issue, and people in the neighborhood (assuming black people- since we are speaking of the incident taking place in an all black neighborhood) would be very vocal in letting you know that they are offended. It's not necessarily appropriate, it will never make sense to southerners, and it doesn't make them the next Rosa Parks, but there is something to be said for standing up for what you believe in.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by *winter*

I'm willing to bet that a white person would not have the (insert word here) to fly that flag in a predominantly black neighborhood.

That is also rare in the south for two reasons:

1. White people tend not to live in historically and predominantly Black neighborhoods unless it is being gentrified. That's a different discussion altogether.

2. The relative few white people who do live in historically and predominantly Black neighborhoods have their Black Card Cliff Notes and have a general idea what to do and what not to do.

Originally Posted by *winter*

I'm also willing to bet if you hung that in the "black" neighborhods in Camden or Philly it would be an issue, and people in the neighborhood (assuming black people- since we are speaking of the incident taking place in an all black neighborhood) would be very vocal in letting you know that they are offended. It's not necessarily appropriate, it will never make sense to southerners, and it doesn't make them the next Rosa Parks, but there is something to be said for standing up for what you believe in.

Oh awesome...well that's what happened in this story. So, basically, the people in your scenario are doing the same thing the people in this story are doing. In fact, the people in this story are extremely blatant about their opposition.

I'm still waiting for the north vs. south difference.

As for Rosa Parks...bleh.