The Confederate Flag

[cheerfulgreek]

Kind of reminds me of the thread about that t-shirt that some people took offense to. Some didn't. Some people are offended by the flag and some are not. I personally find it to be offensive, because of its history of hate (that it represents) towards other groups of people. But, to each its own.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

Forget flags and "be southern" in your accent and enthusiastically welcoming behavior. If the woman was southern in that way, would she have made the news?

Being southern in your accent and welcoming behavior brings images of Paula Deen to my mind. Probably not the image many southerners connect with.

When this topic gets brought up - which seems to happen annually here at GC - I can't help but remember this lovely southern gem.

(Yes, I've posted this before. I know I shouldn't recycle images, but some images are burnt into my brain forever and this is one of them. As sad as that may be.)

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DubaiSis

Also not having a dog in this fight, I think if you want to express your southern pride there are about 10,000 ways you can do it besides waving a rebel flag, which as discussed above isn't even technically an official conferate flag. Forget flags and "be southern" in your accent and enthusiastically welcoming behavior. If the woman was southern in that way, would she have made the news?

Since you say you don't have a dog in this fight, how about refrain from telling Southerners how to express their Southernness, okay? Sorry, but to be honest, that really borders on arrogance.

[AOII Angel]

Looks like rebel flag prom dress girl went to the dance by herself.

Count me in as a born and bred southerner that cringes when I see the Stars and Bars flying. I think for most of our states, the history is too tinged with violence connected to that flag, and throwing it up in the faces of our fellow citizens is rude and inflammatory. Yes, you have the right to fly that flag, but you can also be rude to someone's face. We just don't do that in the south...it's called southern hospitality.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

We just don't do that in the south...it's called southern hospitality.

Meh...

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Count me in as a born and bred southerner that cringes when I see the Stars and Bars flying.

Just 'cause I have to be a nerd for Dr. Phil, this is the Stars and Bars:

I think for most of our states, the history is too tinged with violence connected to that flag, and throwing it up in the faces of our fellow citizens is rude and inflammatory.

Believe it or not, I tend to agree, though I think the Battle Flag and the variation of it used by the Klan and others, rather than the Stars and Bars, are the flags that became so connected with racism for so many that their use can be inflammatory and insensitive, even when there is no racist motive at all.

There are two things I have a problem with in this thread, frankly: The woman who started the whole thing, and the I'm-Not-A-Southerner-And-Just-Don't-Get-It mentality, which I think has its own whiff of prejudice.

[Honeykiss1974]

Originally Posted by Optimus Prime

Sure, she has a right to fly it. I wouldn't. It's always nice to be respectful of your neighbors and compromise. They built the fence, leave the flag where it is; no need to raise it higher.

This.

In my neighborhood we're dealing with this issue (not flag flying but one neighbor doing something that is upsetting the entire neighborhood). Instead of flying a confederate flag, this d-bag has a big sign in his front yard that says " Two retards live next door" with an arrow pointing to his neighbor (and yes, infact two mentally handicapped people do indeed live next door to him, including one with cerebral palsy). As much as everyone would love to (a) kick his @ss and (b) tear it down, we can’t do anything about it legally. The sign doesn't break any laws unfortunately.


Back to the flag - born and raised in Mississippi and I can't stand to look at it and what it represents. However, I don't plan on throwing any rocks at it though. If that's how some chose to display their "southern pride" whatever floats their boat.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

We just don't do that in the south...it's called southern hospitality.

Southerners have a history of being rude whether in your face or behind your back. LOL. Even the phrase "southern hospitality" was initially used to describe a culture of white inclusion and nonwhite exclusion. Be hospitable to those who belong here and don't be hospitable to those who need to either get back on that ship or move Up North.

The dynamics discussed in this thread are rooted in group conflicts and pursuit of group power. Those in power found the least powerful groups to manipulate in pursuit of economic and political power. It wasn't "personal" but it darn sure involved some rudeness. The South is not the only area that participated in this but it darn sure is the only region still holding onto things like "southern hospitality."

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Just 'cause I have to be a nerd for Dr. Phil, this is the Stars and Bars:

You are awesome.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

There are two things I have a problem with in this thread, frankly: The woman who started the whole thing, and the I'm-Not-A-Southerner-And-Just-Don't-Get-It mentality, which I think has its own whiff of prejudice.

Definitely Ditto.

If you will say "I don't get it" no matter how much it is explained to you, you either (1) are not listening; (2) refuse to hear; or (3) have massive brain farts. People should learn to "get it" while disagreeing with it. You cannot disagree with it if you do not "get it."

And, as with many topics, this isn't a Southerner vs. nonSoutherner topic even when making generalizations. Just as there are nonSoutherners who "get it" and/or sport the Confederate symbols, there are Southerners who do not "get it" and/or do not sport the Confederate symbols.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

If you will say "I don't get it" no matter how much it is explained to you, you either (1) are not listening; (2) refuse to hear; or (3) have massive brain farts. People should learn to "get it" while disagreeing with it. You cannot disagree with it if you do not "get it."

You just said so well and succinctly what I was struggling to say. More awesome points for the day!

[amIblue?]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Looks like rebel flag prom dress girl went to the dance by herself.

Count me in as a born and bred southerner that cringes when I see the Stars and Bars flying. I think for most of our states, the history is too tinged with violence connected to that flag, and throwing it up in the faces of our fellow citizens is rude and inflammatory. Yes, you have the right to fly that flag, but you can also be rude to someone's face. We just don't do that in the south...it's called southern hospitality.

I'm completely with you, AOII Angel. I love being a Southerner. I love parts of Southern culture; parts of our history make me cry. In graduate school, I specialized in Southern Literature. That being said, I have seen all too many white Southerners claim "heritage not hate" publicly and privately claim, well, let's just say a less positive spin on things. I declined my opportunity to join the UDC because of this. I do not claim that everyone involved with the Sons/Daughters of the Confederacy are this way, but I've met enough to know that I don't want to be associated with it.

I believe in thorough understanding and teaching of our history, lest we repeat it. One needs to examine the warts and all of the past, and I believe that all too often, the "heritage" group overlooks the warts. I understand why we want to revere some of those ideals, but there was too many horrifying things associated with that time in our history to simply gloss over.

[Low C Sharp]

Now there's two things in the thread that I don't get. Isn't it possible to make an effort to understand something and fail? Isn't it sometimes true that there's a hole in the logic of the concept that you're trying to understand? When I say "I don't get it," how do you know that I haven't listened and tried to understand?

I grasp intellectually that some people choose to put aside history when they are supposedly honoring history. ONE of the numerous historical Confederate flags was used for racial intimidation in the 20th century, not just by the KKK, but by the millions of pro-segregationist voters, White Citizens' Councils, etc. who condoned or supported terrorism against black people, even if they did not themselves practice it. The whole point of terrorism is that you use violence against a small number of people to place the whole population in a state of fear. Watch the newsreels from the night before James Meredith entered Ole Miss -- all those students with flags on their cars weren't Klansmen, but they used that flag to make clear their support for apartheid (and for Meredith getting the hell out if he valued his safety). So I grasp intellectually that there are some people who choose to wave that terrorism-tainted flag, instead of a different Confederate flag, and claim that they aren't invoking the segregationists. I grasp that, but it sure doesn't make any sense to me.

Flags stand for principles. The fact that one group of people with genocidal principles (Nazis) was more successful at murder than another group of people with genocidal principles (the Klan) doesn't effect how horrible those principles are. Al Qaeda wasn't any less vile in 1995, when they'd killed just a handful of people, than they are today. It's the idea that's evil, not just the actions.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Low C Sharp

Now there's two things in the thread that I don't get. Isn't it possible to make an effort to understand something and fail? Isn't it sometimes true that there's a hole in the logic of the concept that you're trying to understand? When I say "I don't get it," how do you know that I haven't listened and tried to understand?

The same way you can dismiss the logic as inherently flawed. This is all about meanings attributed to symbols, group dynamics, and language.

People should not say "I don't get it" if they really mean "I understand what you are saying but do not see how people can ignore history and I disagree with it." That will let others know that you are not confused and do not need the same thing explained over and over again using different words.

[Leslie Anne]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I really don't know what to say other than it is obvious that you don't get it, and to be honest, I don't have the energy right now to try and explain it. Like some others here, I tire of non-Southerners dismissing the whole thing with an "I just don't get it."

Suffice it to say that symbols can have different meanings to different people. The wise and thoughful person is aware of that and takes into account both what they themselves understand a symbol to mean and what they know others might understand the symbol to mean. And that can work both ways.

I believe you're misunderstanding what I mean by "I just don't get it". I am in no way dismissing anything. I'm just stating a fact. I don't understand it. I don't know what others understand the Confederate flag to mean. If it's never explained to me then how can I understand it?

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Again, flags represent different things to different people.

I'm sure that you know that participation in the slave trade and all the atrocities that went with it was not limited to Southerners. It involved people from all over America (not to mention the British and many other non-Americans), and it was sanctioned and supported by federal law. Does that mean the American flag is tainted?

Actually, yes I believe it does.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

To be clear: I'm not so much trying to defend any Confederate flag, much less the Confederacy itself, as I am trying to highlight this point: I think one of the biggest hinderances to understanding other people or other perspectives is the phrase "I just don't get it," or its cousin, "I just don't understand how people can think that." If no effort has been put into trying to understand another's perspective, it's a cop-out and that just reinforces one's own biases. Understanding another's perspective doesn't mean agreement with it, but it does mean being open to the possiblity that maybe, just maybe, there is more than one way to see things.

I'm completely open to trying to understand a different perspective. This has all been discussed here before but then, like now, no one has actually tried to explain it. You're assuming that I haven't put any effort into trying to understand it. That's not true. I have put effort into it. I'm more than willing to listen to an explanation of Southern pride as expressed by waving the Confederate flag without it being racist. The problem is no one seems to be willing to explain it.

You yourself stated that you don't have the energy to explain it. Yet you apparently have plenty of energy to post several times about my "mentality". That's a real cop-out. Why don't you try to be part of the solution? Explain it.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

I believe you're misunderstanding what I mean by "I just don't get it". I am in no way dismissing anything. I'm just stating a fact. I don't understand it. I don't know what others understand the Confederate flag to mean. If it's never explained to me then how can I understand it?

No one has explained it or you have never read about this?

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

I'm completely open to trying to understand a different perspective. This has all been discussed here before but then, like now, no one has actually tried to explain it. You're assuming that I haven't put any effort into trying to understand it. That's not true. I have put effort into it. I'm more than willing to listen to an explanation of Southern pride as expressed by waving the Confederate flag without it being racist. The problem is no one seems to be willing to explain it.

People have explained it. You may not grasp the manner in which they are explaining it. That is subconciously (and perhaps consciously) rooted in your belief that you neither understand nor agree with it. When people disagree with something, they tend to want explanations to be in an awesome package that caters not only to those who need the information but also to those who disagree and need to be convinced.

Originally Posted by Leslie Anne

You yourself stated that you don't have the energy to explain it. Yet you apparently have plenty of energy to post several times about my "mentality". That's a real cop-out. Why don't you try to be part of the solution? Explain it.

LOL. This was both cute and funny.

Have you never read these types of threads before? Even people in this thread have explained why they have positive feelings about the Confederacy even with its history. Again, their explanation is not designed for you specifically to comprehend using the language that you may need to comprehend. But, it is a discussion and an explanation.