Osama Bin Laden Dead

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

So the man responsible for some of the most deadly terrorist attacks ever seen is now off of this world but some are more concerned that people celebrated? Wow. I really don't care that people in the middle east see us partying in the streets -Do you guys realize that celebrations or not AL-QAEDA STILL HATES US AND WANTS TO SEE AMERICANS DIE? People weren't celebrating some attack that killed civilians or innocents, as THEY do, people were celebrating the end of monster.

Celebrating any murder is sickening. It is horrific that it had to come to this in order to stop him, but our leaders made the best decisions they could with what they were given. However, to relish in his death is grotesque. Let us not forget that his ideology didn't die with him, so our accomplishment was killing a man.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Celebrating any murder is sickening. It is horrific that it had to come to this in order to stop him, but our leaders made the best decisions they could with what they were given. However, to relish in his death is grotesque. Let us not forget that his ideology didn't die with him, so our accomplishment was killing a man.

Bin Laden wasn't the type to surrender or allow himself to be captured. Like I posted earlier, he had reportedly given orders to his bodyguards to shoot him if his capture ever appeared imminent. There were only two options IMHO, kill him/capture him (which he most likely would be executed) or just allow him to live out his days potentially planning more attacks. Judging from your post I assume you'd prefer the latter.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Celebrating any murder is sickening. It is horrific that it had to come to this in order to stop him, but our leaders made the best decisions they could with what they were given. However, to relish in his death is grotesque. Let us not forget that his ideology didn't die with him, so our accomplishment was killing a man.

Wow. We agree on something.

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Bin Laden wasn't the type to surrender or allow himself to be captured. Like I posted earlier, he had reportedly given orders to his bodyguards to shoot him if his capture ever appeared imminent. There were only two options IMHO, kill him/capture him (which he most likely would be executed) or just allow him to live out his days potentially planning more attacks. Judging from your post I assume you'd prefer the latter.

Where did she say that it shouldn't have been done? In fact, she said that we did what we had to do. You can do the right thing without it being a celebratory occasion. We're not objecting to the fact he was killed by US forces. We're objecting to celebrating the death of human life, no matter how evil.

Now, not to be hypocritical, I did get a little emotional when my husband flipped on RAW last night and they showed snips from September 11th, their tribute show, and then had Lillian Garcia sing the National Anthem and the Rock lead the Pledge. However, to me, it seemed more about honoring the troops than celebrating bin Laden's death. I'm ok with that.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

We're not objecting to the fact he was killed by US forces.

I'm not saying you do, but her post was borderline. I'm sorry but U.S. Forces taking out Bin Laden is not a "horrific murder"

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Celebrating any murder is sickening.

It's not a murder. Murders have to be unlawful. At least where the United States is concerned, this was done pursuant to a long-standing Executive Order which no one challenged the propriety of (at least not successfully, I understand someone had attempted to challenge the propriety of a similar Executive Order authorizing the killing of Anwar Al-Awlaki, which was dismissed for several reasons). So I definitely wouldn't call it a murder.

The worst thing you could get away with calling this is a sanctioned assassination.

And really, what's the cost of taking someone like OBL alive? Do that, and you risk hostage taking or other acts to free OBL. Don't forget. We're at war. War is pretty uncivilized. The enemy doesn't get due process.

I happily celebrate this terrorist's death. May he burn in hell. The SEALs who ended him are heroes. Of course this doesn't end the war on terror, but it is a pretty major victory for the good guys. This isn't just about OBL's death. It's also about an America which in the aftermath of 9/11 has felt pretty impotent to bring its architects to justice. We have done that (mostly) now, and symbolically, that's big.

[Ghostwriter]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Celebrating any murder is sickening. It is horrific that it had to come to this in order to stop him, but our leaders made the best decisions they could with what they were given. However, to relish in his death is grotesque. Let us not forget that his ideology didn't die with him, so our accomplishment was killing a man.

Just wondering if you were old enough to remember the celebrations when Ted Bundy was executed for the murder of the 3 Chi Omega members at FSU. I remember some fast food restaurants giving out free Bundy fries the day of his execution. His execution was not a murder and neither was the killing of OBL.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by Kevin

It's not a murder.

My disclaimer would read that I used the term murder in a biblical sense, not a legal one.

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

Just wondering if you were old enough to remember the celebrations when Ted Bundy was executed for the murder of the 3 Chi Omega members at FSU. I remember some fast food restaurants giving out free Bundy fries the day of his execution. His execution was not a murder and neither was the killing of OBL.

Bundy and bin Laden both willingly succumbed to evil. Both of them were stopped, which was necessary for the safety of the rest of us. However (again speaking from a biblical perspective), all human life deserves respect and compassion. The loss of bin Laden is the loss of a leader that, had he been on the righteous path, would have been a powerful force for good. It is heartbreaking that he made the choices he did and was responsible for so many deaths. He had to be stopped.

I come from a long line of soldiers and if I've learned anything it is that no one wants to go to war and no one wants to kill another person. So, I would rather people expend their energies not celebrating bin Laden's death, but praying for the soldiers who bore the burden, and will have to deal with the psychological impact, of taking lives, as well as all the extremists who can still make the right choice about their involvement in evil activities.

[Munchkin03]

Who are the idiots who think that this means the war is over? The folks acting like it was V-E day and V-J day up in Times Square clearly never took high school history.

Also, at people equating OBL's death to Hitler's. It shows a complete lack of knowledge about the collapse of the Axis Forces during WWII, and a conflation of OBL's dastardly deeds with those of Hitler.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Who are the idiots who think that this means the war is over? The folks acting like it was V-E day and V-J day up in Times Square clearly never took high school history.

Also, at people equating OBL's death to Hitler's. It shows a complete lack of knowledge about the collapse of the Axis Forces during WWII, and a conflation of OBL's dastardly deeds with those of Hitler.

Most of what I've seen re: Hitler/Osama had to do with the confirmations of their deaths (May 1)

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Most of what I've seen re: Hitler/Osama had to do with the confirmations of their deaths (May 1)

I've only seen that once...I've heard/read people say, "this is how our grandparents felt when we got Hitler!" too many times to count. Besides not being quite correct, it conflates OBL (who's a worldwide bastard, to be sure) with Hitler (who's probably the worldwide bastard of modern history).

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

I've only seen that once...I've heard/read people say, "this is how our grandparents felt when we got Hitler!" too many times to count. Besides not being quite correct, it conflates OBL (who's a worldwide bastard, to be sure) with Hitler (who's probably the worldwide bastard of modern history).

While comparing something to Hitler is the automatic losing argument of the internet world, I think that those people are making the best comparison they know how.

This, all this going around right now, is a cathartic response. The stupidity, the USA USA USA, the fuck you OBL burn in hell and the tears and everything. People needed it, it brings closure and even if most of it isn't the most mature of behaviors or words, it doesn't mean it's not useful to the people feeling/saying/doing those things even if they don't know that at an intellectual level.

We'll get past it and life will go on.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

I've only seen that once...I've heard/read people say, "this is how our grandparents felt when we got Hitler!" too many times to count. Besides not being quite correct, it conflates OBL (who's a worldwide bastard, to be sure) with Hitler (who's probably the worldwide bastard of modern history).

Not to mention that "getting Hitler" pretty much did mean that the war in Europe was over.

[Ghostwriter]

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

My disclaimer would read that I used the term murder in a biblical sense, not a legal one.

I come from a long line of soldiers and if I've learned anything it is that no one wants to go to war and no one wants to kill another person. So, I would rather people expend their energies not celebrating bin Laden's death, but praying for the soldiers who bore the burden, and will have to deal with the psychological impact, of taking lives, as well as all the extremists who can still make the right choice about their involvement in evil activities.

I appreciate your sentiments though I cannot agree.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the soldier or soldiers who took down OBL will not lose any sleep over their task. I agree that the soldier/s who is/are responsible for taking another life/s may experience some tremendous psychological impact on their psyche because of these responsibilities but in this case I doubt that there will be serious problems. I don't know and can't predict their (Seals) future but I believe they will equate the killing of OBL to the killing of a "rabid" animal. In that same vain, I have no problem celebrating his death and the courage of our soldiers and sailors. Sometimes people have to die for the common good of mankind. OBL deserved an ignoble death and that is what he got.

In that celebratory vain I offer the newest cocktail:

The OBL - 2 Shots and a Splash of Water

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

I appreciate your sentiments though I cannot agree.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the soldier or soldiers who took down OBL will not lose any sleep over their task. I agree that the soldier/s who is/are responsible for taking another life/s may experience some tremendous psychological impact on their psyche because of these responsibilities but in this case I doubt that there will be serious problems. I don't know and can't predict their (Seals) future but I believe they will equate the killing of OBL to the killing of a "rabid" animal. In that same vain, I have no problem celebrating his death and the courage of our soldiers and sailors. Sometimes people have to die for the common good of mankind. OBL deserved an ignoble death and that is what he got.

In that celebratory vain I offer the newest cocktail:

The OBL - 2 Shots and a Splash of Water

If you don't know and can't predict how those soldiers will feel, perhaps immediately making predictions was in poor taste. If you're not the one making the shot, you really don't know how it will affect the shooter, or the others involved. Seals are heroes but not superheroes, and PTSD is always a possible outcome. It's entirely unrelated to whether the target deserved it.

/yes yes, rah rah USA and all that.

[ASTalumna06]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

I appreciate your sentiments though I cannot agree.

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

I have a sneaking suspicion that the soldier or soldiers who took down OBL will not lose any sleep over their task. I agree that the soldier/s who is/are responsible for taking another life/s may experience some tremendous psychological impact on their psyche because of these responsibilities but in this case I doubt that there will be serious problems. I don't know and can't predict their (Seals) future but I believe they will equate the killing of OBL to the killing of a "rabid" animal. In that same vain, I have no problem celebrating his death and the courage of our soldiers and sailors. Sometimes people have to die for the common good of mankind. OBL deserved an ignoble death and that is what he got.

Hell, I’m sure quite a few Americans (both soldiers and non-soldiers, alike) would have liked to have been able to take him down themselves. And on the other side of it, there are probably quite a few people (soldiers included) who would prefer never to be in a situation where they had to kill anyone.

But to assume/guess how those soldiers feel about this is not the issue here.

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

My disclaimer would read that I used the term murder in a biblical sense, not a legal one.

Originally Posted by preciousjeni

Bundy and bin Laden both willingly succumbed to evil. Both of them were stopped, which was necessary for the safety of the rest of us. However (again speaking from a biblical perspective), all human life deserves respect and compassion. The loss of bin Laden is the loss of a leader that, had he been on the righteous path, would have been a powerful force for good. It is heartbreaking that he made the choices he did and was responsible for so many deaths. He had to be stopped.

I come from a long line of soldiers and if I've learned anything it is that no one wants to go to war and no one wants to kill another person. So, I would rather people expend their energies not celebrating bin Laden's death, but praying for the soldiers who bore the burden, and will have to deal with the psychological impact, of taking lives, as well as all the extremists who can still make the right choice about their involvement in evil activities.

I don’t think that Americans were celebrating a death, as much as they were celebrating the fact that what they had feared for so long was finally gone… that the person who killed our fellow Americans could no longer do so… that after searching for nearly a decade, the man that caused so much death and destruction had been caught. Take 9/11 out of the equation for a minute. Pretend that someone had shot and killed one of your close family members, and it was known that he had done the same to others. Now pretend that they couldn’t find him… for 10 years. You mean to tell me that if he was involved in some shoot-out with police (because there was no way he was going to go quietly), and he was shot and killed, you wouldn’t feel somewhat happy/relieved that he had been stopped?

This country has lived in fear for 10 years. That fear may have dissipated a bit since 9/11, but look at our airports, our office buildings, etc. Security is tighter than it’s ever been in this country, and yes, it is because of terrorism. I know people who still haven’t boarded an airplane since that Tuesday in 2001. I lived 40 minutes outside of Boston at the time, and I knew the daughters of one of the pilots of a plane that hit the WTC. My cousin’s best friend and his fiancé were killed on one of those flights. My stepmom was sitting on the runway at Logan, ready to take off when the news broke, and the plane turned around. I lived 2 minutes away from the FAA Center that the terrorists toured before the attacks (which can no longer be toured because of that very reason). They even took down all of the signs indicating where the building is, and removed the huge model airplane out front. Things changed, people were broken, and they finally found a reason to stand up and cheer.

Taking a life SHOULD be a difficult thing… And for many of our troops, I’m sure it is, especially when killing someone who seemingly has done nothing to them. And yes, I feel for them in that respect. But for these terrorists, it’s not difficult at all. Imagine waking up, every day of your life, thinking of and plotting ways to kill people on the other side of the globe, whom you’ve never even met, for seemingly no other reason than the fact that someone told you that you should hate them. Nineteen men were willing to give up their lives so that thousands of Americans would die. Compare that to the few dozen people on board Flight 93 who were willing to die to SAVE other people whom they didn't know, and never would. Who are the heroes here? Who should we feel “respect and compassion” for?

You can talk about evil taking over these people all day long, but the fact is, these terrorists (and especially Osama bin Laden) lived to hate. That’s it. Nothing more, nothing less. I believe that some people who kill can be rehabilitated. However, these people can’t. And yes, I’m glad he’s dead. And yes, if I lived in NYC, or DC, or if I was on one of the many campuses around the country going crazy over this, I would have been outside with everyone else, waving a flag and singing ‘God Bless America.’ It’s because of that bastard that security has been heightened even further these last few days, that our troops are being more cautious than ever, and that my brother is probably now in more danger in Iraq. Even in his death, OBL has somehow found a way to screw us. So fuck him, that’s what I say.

Originally Posted by FHwku

Mona Eltahawy in New York

Originally Posted by FHwku

The Guardian, Tuesday 3 May 2011

i don't like that the writer characterizes celebration at Ground Zero as a "frat boy reaction." or when anyone feels like they need to chide someone else for expressing or having a feeling.
example:
i'm hungry.
how can you think about food at a time like this?

On a lighter note, this made me think of the Seinfeld episode when Jerry and George are in L.A. looking for Kramer after he’s been accused of murder:


Jerry: Obviously we're gonna call the police and tell them that he's not the guy.

George: Hope he's not the guy.

Jerry: Couldn't be the guy... nah.

George: God, I'm starved, I'm weak from hunger.

Jerry: How can you think of food at the time like this?

George: Time like what? I'm hungry. My stomach doesn't know that Kramer's wanted.