Shutter Fraternities for Young Women's Good

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AnchorAlum

Her article was almost sad. It sounds as though she has a phobia that will absolutely limit her for the rest of her life.

I have news for her. Men live in the real world. If she wants to live there as well, she better get over her issues.

Men run the real world. Which was kind of her poorly expressed overwrought point.

HEY, Caitlin. You and others who have this apparent struggle about fearing men need to "man up" (pun intended) and learn that college boys and yes, grown men, live through their penises.

What. The. Fuck?

Don't ever go upstairs at a frat house unless its with your established boyfriend who you use for sex

Wait now, so if she had a boyfriend she's only using him for sex? Didn't she SAY that she was warned not to go upstairs under fear of rape? You think this was a newsflash?

don't make a fool of yourself by being the queen of kegstands,

Right, because if she's drunk it's her fault she was raped!

don't be STUPID,

The punishment for stupidity is not rape.

and Mr. Penis will have to sit in his room and go fap fap fap all by himself.

You know rape is about power, not sex, right? Even date rape, acquaintance rape, drunk at a party rape. It's about having the POWER to force someone to do something that they do not or would not consent to.

Yes, hell yes, I am a lot older than many of you. But here's the flash, girlies. Mr. Penis is an ancient god, one who lives through the ages.

WTF is this even.

They don't care what she is. They're trying to get laid. Is this a revelation in 2011?

While they obviously don't care about her as a person, it is NOT ABOUT SEX.

Okay. That's my weekly rant. Carry on.

Do all your weekly rants make this little sense?

Originally Posted by 33girl

So in other words, every man's default setting is rapist, and we need to "teach" them to override it?

Thank you so much for proving my point.

If that's what you read you're an idiot. It's about teaching our children, from young through college how to act and what is unacceptable behavior rather than permitting men to act however they like, and punishing women.

Your point was that we should stop talking about rape so we don't upset anyone. Oh how terrible, the divide between men and women when men are forced to acknowledge the existence of rape. 99% of which is perpetrated by their gender. Obviously their feelings are the most important here and it's just better not to actually address the real problem.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

...rather than permitting men to act however they like, and punishing women.

I doubt that is what 33girl is advocating. That seems to be exactly what AnchorAlum is advocating.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I doubt that is what 33girl is advocating. That seems to be exactly what AnchorAlum is advocating.

Indeed. It is however, the status quo, as is focusing on 'safety' even including men in the safety classes. It is all reinforcing the current state of affairs, and punishing women while permitting men is that state of affairs.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Right, because if she's drunk it's her fault she was raped!

It is seen as her "fault" because she gave up her power by getting drunk.

By being drunk she has limited her control over herself - she can no longer make good decisions.

Now, does this give the man (assuming it is "always" a man) the right to rape her, no, it does not. But, what happens is that the guy becomes an opportunist. He sees an opportunity to rape her and takes advantage of it. It is still not right, but that is what happens.

The woman must exercise responsibility for herself. By being drunk and no longer in control of her actions she has put that burden of responsibility on someone else.

The punishment for stupidity is not rape.

I agree.

[Ghostwriter]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

It is seen as her "fault" because she gave up her power by getting drunk.

By being drunk she has limited her control over herself - she can no longer make good decisions.

I disagree. She was drugged. Big difference.

Let me state this. I was once slipped a "mickey"/"roofie" into my beer by our pledges as a prank. I was totally incapacitated. I was somewhat aware of what was happening but it was beyond my power to do anything of my own volition. I woke up in the middle of the night in my girlfriends apartment and had no idea how I got there. I was stone cold sober as I had only had a part of a single beer. Unless you have ever been given one of these things it is hard to understand how helpless one becomes.

This type attack has nothing to do with the victim and it is the perp/s who should be called to account. Via further reading, it is my understanding that the perp was not a fraternity member but someone who lived in the house. At least that is the story the Fraternity gives. If she was indeed gang raped then many members of the Fraternity were in on it. That has not been proven, though.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

I disagree. She was drugged. Big difference.

Let me state this. I was once slipped a "mickey"/"roofie" into my beer by our pledges as a prank. I was totally incapacitated. I was somewhat aware of what was happening but it was beyond my power to do anything of my own volition. I woke up in the middle of the night in my girlfriends apartment and had no idea how I got there. I was stone cold sober as I had only had a part of a single beer. Unless you have ever been given one of these things it is hard to understand how helpless one becomes.

This type attack has nothing to do with the victim and it is the perp/s who should be called to account. Via further reading, it is my understanding that the perp was not a fraternity member but someone who lived in the house. At least that is the story the Fraternity gives. If she was indeed gang raped then many members of the Fraternity were in on it. That has not been proven, though.

Agree 100%

Even if a person is shit-faced drunk, when s/he says "No," it means "No." It doesn't mean "You should've been more careful. Now the rape is your fault."

[sigmadiva]

That is what I said - even though the woman, or heck guy for that matter, may be isht-faced drunk, no one should take advantage of that situation in any way.

But, that does not mean that person should not exercise any responsibility.

If you know that you get totally drunk after a few beers and some shots and pass out, then that is on you. No one forced you to get that drunk and pass out. Still, no one should attack you, but you have left yourself vulnerable by your own means.

I'm advocating personal responsibility.

Go out, party and have a good time, but know your limits.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

That is what I said - even though the woman, or heck guy for that matter, may be isht-faced drunk, no one should take advantage of that situation in any way.

But, that does not mean that person should not exercise any responsibility.

If you know that you get totally drunk after a few beers and some shots and pass out, then that is on you. No one forced you to get that drunk and pass out. Still, no one should attack you, but you have left yourself vulnerable by your own means.

I'm advocating personal responsibility.

Go out, party and have a good time, but know your limits.

The problem here is that all too frequently society puts the onus on women, the responsibility on women, to not be raped. Yeah people should be safe and be responsible, but if the reaction to a rape is "well she shouldn't have been drinking so much", or the inexplicable "she shouldn't have been going upstairs with Mr. Penis" of the post I was replying to, there is a serious problem and it is not with the rape victim. It's good to encourage responsibility, but never to put responsibility for a crime onto a victim. And as a society we should be "encouraging" more responsibility on the part of the rapists instead of only looking at the victims.

So yeah, when people come into a thread about rape and only want to say "Buuuuuut I just mean personal responsibility is important" when that is pretty much ALL society bothers to say, it suggests a real blindness to reality.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

The problem here is that all too frequently society puts the onus on women, the responsibility on women, to not be raped. Yeah people should be safe and be responsible, but if the reaction to a rape is "well she shouldn't have been drinking so much", or the inexplicable "she shouldn't have been going upstairs with Mr. Penis" of the post I was replying to, there is a serious problem and it is not with the rape victim. It's good to encourage responsibility, but never to put responsibility for a crime onto a victim. And as a society we should be "encouraging" more responsibility on the part of the rapists instead of only looking at the victims.

So yeah, when people come into a thread about rape and only want to say "Buuuuuut I just mean personal responsibility is important" when that is pretty much ALL society bothers to say, it suggests a real blindness to reality.

The problem that I have with your logic / rationale is that you are putting adult women on the level of children - people who are incapable of fully protecting themselves.

I never suggested that the guy can and should get away with it.

What I'm saying is that as women we may have to exercise a little more judgment than men. That is to say use some common sense too.

If a girl at a party gets drunk and goes upstairs with a guy, what does she anticipate will happen? That he is going to do her taxes?

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

I disagree. She was drugged. Big difference.

Let me state this. I was once slipped a "mickey"/"roofie" into my beer by our pledges as a prank. I was totally incapacitated. I was somewhat aware of what was happening but it was beyond my power to do anything of my own volition. I woke up in the middle of the night in my girlfriends apartment and had no idea how I got there. I was stone cold sober as I had only had a part of a single beer. Unless you have ever been given one of these things it is hard to understand how helpless one becomes.

This type attack has nothing to do with the victim and it is the perp/s who should be called to account. Via further reading, it is my understanding that the perp was not a fraternity member but someone who lived in the house. At least that is the story the Fraternity gives. If she was indeed gang raped then many members of the Fraternity were in on it. That has not been proven, though.

You're right. It is a HUGE difference if a person is drugged without their knowledge.

The way I have read the thread though, the issue has not been in particular if the person was drugged.


IDK, when I was cautioned by my parents and good friends I was told to never let my drink out of my sight, and more specifically, my hands.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

I disagree. She was drugged. Big difference.

Let me state this. I was once slipped a "mickey"/"roofie" into my beer by our pledges as a prank. I was totally incapacitated. I was somewhat aware of what was happening but it was beyond my power to do anything of my own volition. I woke up in the middle of the night in my girlfriends apartment and had no idea how I got there. I was stone cold sober as I had only had a part of a single beer. Unless you have ever been given one of these things it is hard to understand how helpless one becomes.

This type attack has nothing to do with the victim and it is the perp/s who should be called to account. Via further reading, it is my understanding that the perp was not a fraternity member but someone who lived in the house. At least that is the story the Fraternity gives. If she was indeed gang raped then many members of the Fraternity were in on it. That has not been proven, though.

Thank you.

And what's up with pledges thinking slipping a mickey is a decent prank? Was that a sign of the times? I am glad that you had a safe outcome. That kind of incapacitation is terrifying.

[Ghostwriter]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

And what's up with pledges thinking slipping a mickey is a decent prank? Was that a sign of the times? I am glad that you had a safe outcome. That kind of incapacitation is terrifying.

Good question. I was the pledge trainer and evidently someone thought it would be funny. It was not and there was hell to pay. I never did find out exactly who did it but I blamed them all and they all suffered for it.

EMS even asked my girlfriend if I was capable of making it back. It was that bad. She somehow convinced them that I was. I was totally out of the loop when she was walking/dragging me back to the apartment with the help of some brothers. I remember nothing until I set up on the couch and wondered where the hell I was. These type drugs are not funny and are only used/abused by losers. The experience was terrifying and I feel for anyone who has ever been the victim of this type drug and experience. You are totally under the control of the drug and at the mercy of whomever or whatever.

[33girl]

OMG, DF, you are SO right. I'm going to go out and cut off every penis I see.

No really...from one post to another, you changed from "teaching men" to "teaching children."

Obviously what I said made you realize you were wrong and I was right.

Thank you, drive through.

[AnchorAlum]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Men run the real world. Which was kind of her poorly expressed overwrought point.


What. The. Fuck?

Wait now, so if she had a boyfriend she's only using him for sex? Didn't she SAY that she was warned not to go upstairs under fear of rape? You think this was a newsflash?


Right, because if she's drunk it's her fault she was raped!

The punishment for stupidity is not rape.


You know rape is about power, not sex, right? Even date rape, acquaintance rape, drunk at a party rape. It's about having the POWER to force someone to do something that they do not or would not consent to.


WTF is this even.


While they obviously don't care about her as a person, it is NOT ABOUT SEX.


Do all your weekly rants make this little sense?



If that's what you read you're an idiot. It's about teaching our children, from young through college how to act and what is unacceptable behavior rather than permitting men to act however they like, and punishing women.

Your point was that we should stop talking about rape so we don't upset anyone. Oh how terrible, the divide between men and women when men are forced to acknowledge the existence of rape. 99% of which is perpetrated by their gender. Obviously their feelings are the most important here and it's just better not to actually address the real problem.

J.F.C.

If you think that my point was that we should stop talking about rape so we don't upset anyone, I AM NOT THE IDIOT HERE.

I read what this woman wrote, and I read also the op-ed in the WSJ last weekend. I have my take, and you have yours.

She's a freakin' pansy if she was so upset by those horrible fraternity houses at UVA full of preppy little assholes who wear oxford shirts and orange and blue rep ties to the Wahoo games on Saturdays and leave at halftime cause their team sucks and their buzz is off.

Seriously, would YOU let a kid scare you off of that campus? Riiiiiggghhht.

Girlfriend would NOT survive a visit to a Baltimore McDonalds....