ITT We Discuss Theology

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by aephi alum

I was taught that parishes were not only allowed but required to celebrate Mass in the vernacular, as an outcome of Vatican II. If the clergy at a parish wanted to celebrate a Latin Mass, they needed a dispensation from the Vatican. It could be a one-time dispensation (e.g. for Christmas or Easter) or a standing weekly dispensation as in the case of the parish in Vienna where I attended Mass. Perhaps this has changed? (I haven't been a practicing Catholic in over a decade.)

Still true, although I believe Benedict has made it easier for parishes to get permission to have Latin Masses, particularly on a regular basis. I'm not sure if the petition still goes to the Vatican or if the bishops can now give permission. But your understanding's accurate.

[Gusteau]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

Order of the Mass.

http://www.usccb.org/romanmissal/order-of-mass.pdf

Thank you, thank you!

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

We may be operating with different definitions of guilt. I think you are leaning more towards a definition for what I would label shame, which is a horse of a different colour. Guilt in and of itself is not a good thing, but as a motivating force - something which causes you to examine your actions - it is. Guilt implies a knowledge of right and wrong. Although I realize it is now quite the fashion to be a moral relativist, I'd argue that losing the perspective of right/wrong that leads to the kind of guilt I'm discussing has resulted in far more evil than the occasional misplaced guilt.

I think this is a good estimation of guilt moving towards something positive. I had a brilliant thought related to this at Mass this evening, but I cannot remember it for the life of me.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Still true, although I believe Benedict has made it easier for parishes to get permission to have Latin Masses, particularly on a regular basis. I'm not sure if the petition still goes to the Vatican or if the bishops can now give permission. But your understanding's accurate.

Actually according to Redemptionis Sacramentum (link),

[112.] Mass is celebrated either in Latin or in another language, provided that liturgical texts are used which have been approved according to the norm of law. Except in the case of celebrations of the Mass that are scheduled by the ecclesiastical authorities to take place in the language of the people, Priests are always and everywhere permitted to celebrate Mass in Latin.

In other words, unless the big wigs say there is supposed to be a Mass in the vernacular, any Mass can be celebrated in Latin. Many very conservative parishes incorporate a Latin Mass into their weekly schedule. Additionally neither the Second Vatican Council, nor the subsequent revisions to the Roman Missal abolished Latin as the liturgical language of the Roman Rite. This is why all vernacular texts of the Mass are translated from the Roman Missal (in Latin). I'm not sure if this is a change made after aephialum was in Vienna though...

ETA: Redemtionis Sacramentum is from 2004, so it may be a recent change, or this may have been in place already and not part of the revisions made.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by Gusteau

Thank you, thank you!



I think this is a good estimation of guilt moving towards something positive. I had a brilliant thought related to this at Mass this evening, but I cannot remember it for the life of me.



Actually according to Redemptionis Sacramentum (link),

In other words, unless the big wigs say there is supposed to be a Mass in the vernacular, any Mass can be celebrated in Latin. Many very conservative parishes incorporate a Latin Mass into their weekly schedule. Additionally neither the Second Vatican Council, nor the subsequent revisions to the Roman Missal abolished Latin as the liturgical language of the Roman Rite. This is why all vernacular texts of the Mass are translated from the Roman Missal (in Latin). I'm not sure if this is a change made after aephialum was in Vienna though...

ETA: Redemtionis Sacramentum is from 2004, so it may be a recent change, or this may have been in place already and not part of the revisions made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tridentine_Mass
I think I was thinking of the Tridentine Mass, which is typically called the Latin Mass. Permission is now sought from the parish priests rather than the bishops and Benedict gave a LOT more leeway for that. It uses the 1962 missal. If churches wish to have Mass in Latin from the current Novus Ordo missal, no permission is needed.

And then there are the churches who think Vatican II was something crazy the kids did in the sixties and use a previous missal. They tend to be in schism or in a weird quasi-schismatic state IIRC.

[aephi alum]

Originally Posted by Gusteau

I'm not sure if this is a change made after aephialum was in Vienna though...

ETA: Redemtionis Sacramentum is from 2004, so it may be a recent change, or this may have been in place already and not part of the revisions made.

If the change occurred in 2004, then, yes, it was well after I had the opportunity to celebrate Mass in Latin as a teenager in Vienna, and also well after I converted to Judaism. Let's just say that I've celebrated my 29th birthday more than once.

I have to say that the Latin Mass was an unusual and inspiring religious experience for me, as well as an educational experience, as I was studying Latin in high school as a "dead language" and here it was being used as a living language in the 20th century. However, as I've said before, it was not the faith that was in my heart - that is Judaism.

There is an old joke: "Latin is a language, as dead as dead can be. First it killed the Romans... now it's killing me."