ITT We Discuss Theology

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I've been letting this one perculate for a few days. I'm not sure how helpful this is, but I tend to think a proper answer may turn on what is meant by "prayer" and what is mean by "work."

I think too often, people think of prayer as asking for things, whether for ourselves or others. This may be okay as far as it goes, but if one isn't careful, it turns God into Santa Claus and prayer into a wish list. If I got what I wished for, it worked; if I didn't, it didn't. I fall into this trap myself sometimes.

But I think a better understanding sees prayer as conversation, the goal of which is deeper relationship with God and with others. Conversation, of course, involved talking and listening. Intercessory prayer in such a context "works" not only if the thing prayed for happens (say, cure from cancer), but also if the prayer produces a change in me and my understanding of how I need to relate to the person for whom I'm praying, a change in that person or a change in my understanding of how the prayer is being answered.

I know that in my own prayers, I try to remember to pray for all who suffer, including those known to me. I also have a tendency not to get too specific -- I tend to pray, say, for healing and comfort and peace and good, with an understanding that healing can come in forms other than just healing of the body. Healing of the spirit can be equally if not more important, and my idea of what is good for someone may be totally off.

I don't discount more specific intecessory prayer at all -- I know that if my kid had cancer, I would pray hard for that cancer to be gone. (And I have seen that happen in others.) But I think I would struggle to situate that prayer in a larger context of conversation like I've described.


I seem to recall that C.S. Lewis wrote in Letters to Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer something to the effect that his prayer list just kept getting longer and longer, because once he put someone on it, he couldn't bear to take them off.

He also said in that book: "It's so much easier to pray for a bore than to go and see one." Don't know if you'd find the book useful or not. I did.

Aside from other values, I think at least part of the value for intercession is that it reinforces, for me, that it's not all about me and my needs. It brings a consciousness of the needs of others and need to be in community with others. (See CSL quote above.) When the prayer is a conversation, then one might hear the answer to "please help ____" as "I can and will, through you. I need you to ______."

FWIW.

I'm going to look into the CS Lewis book, however I guess I'm still left with this thought process - many types of intercessionary prayer are simply... "doing it wrong" so to speak. But for those other types of prayer, and "correct" intercessionary prayer, if prayer is a conversation, then what is the explanation for those who receive no reply, no understanding, no feeling, no nothing?

None of the explanations I can come up with work, the only one that's passable for being utterly unprovable is that there's something 'wrong' with the person praying, but it's a shifting standard. And while absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, I'm just not any closer to finding answers.

/yeah this is all about me.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I'm going to look into the CS Lewis book, however I guess I'm still left with this thought process - many types of intercessionary prayer are simply... "doing it wrong" so to speak. But for those other types of prayer, and "correct" intercessionary prayer, if prayer is a conversation, then what is the explanation for those who receive no reply, no understanding, no feeling, no nothing?

None of the explanations I can come up with work, the only one that's passable for being utterly unprovable is that there's something 'wrong' with the person praying, but it's a shifting standard. And while absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, I'm just not any closer to finding answers.

And this probably doesn't get you any closer -- I think there's always a response. I think "the explanation for those who receive no reply, no understanding, no feeling, no nothing" is not that's it's not there. It's that they're missing it. I wouldn't say that means there's something "wrong" with the person praying exactly. And I'd also say even the most devout saint has periods when there seems to be no response.

/yeah this is all about me.

And that's okay.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

And this probably doesn't get you any closer -- I think there's always a response. I think "the explanation for those who receive no reply, no understanding, no feeling, no nothing" is not that's it's not there. It's that they're missing it. I wouldn't say that means there's something "wrong" with the person praying exactly. And I'd also say even the most devout saint has periods when there seems to be no response.

That was my thought when I first read the question as well. Sometimes we miss the response/answer or don't interpret it as the response/answer. Like in the movie Signs.. do you believe in Signs or Coincidence?

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AGDee

That was my thought when I first read the question as well. Sometimes we miss the response/answer or don't interpret it as the response/answer. Like in the movie Signs.. do you believe in Signs or Coincidence?

Coincidence. If anyone's going to bother to send a sign, it's going to be obvious and not my brain trying to make patterns out of random occurrences which is something our brain is proven to do.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

And this probably doesn't get you any closer -- I think there's always a response. I think "the explanation for those who receive no reply, no understanding, no feeling, no nothing" is not that's it's not there. It's that they're missing it. I wouldn't say that means there's something "wrong" with the person praying exactly. And I'd also say even the most devout saint has periods when there seems to be no response.



And that's okay.

While I understand what you're saying there's no way for me to... accept it. If that makes any sense. I know what you mean, but I don't believe it.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

While I understand what you're saying there's no way for me to... accept it. If that makes any sense. I know what you mean, but I don't believe it.

It makes complete sense. I don't know that it could be otherwise. Either you believe it or you don't. Either it fits into your frame of reference for making sense of everything or it doesn't. I'm not sure it's something others can convince a person of one way or the other.