Philadelphia abortion doctor accused of murdering patient, newborns

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by agzg

They might have had valid reasons for going that long - they couldn't get an abortion at reputable places, they couldn't afford it, this was a last resort, things of that nature.

It's unfortunate that those who may actually need these procedures more often (lower socioeconomic status and all the sexual and opportunity-based implications that may have) usually have the hardest time being able to access them in safe and reputable conditions.

If you can use Shady McQuack at 8 months, you could have used him at 3.

Either way, there is NO valid reason for aborting/murdering a viable baby. Period.

And you want your CHOICE? You got it, and you CHOSE to get nekkid. Choice made. That's my version of pro-choice.

[Ghostwriter]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

If you can use Shady McQuack at 8 months, you could have used him at 3.

Either way, there is NO valid reason for aborting/murdering a viable baby. Period.

And you want your CHOICE? You got it, and you CHOSE to get nekkid. Choice made. That's my version of pro-choice.

My thoughts exactly. Couldn't have said it better. We make mistakes and the innocent have to suffer. And I have to believe that the way these innocent children were murdered was particularly heinous.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

And I have to believe that the way these innocent children were murdered was particularly heinous.

That's the thing--regardless of where one lies on the pro-choice/pro-life spectrum, everyone can agree that the manner in which these procedures occurred were barbaric to say the least.

Add to that the fact that this was done after viability, in situations where it was probably NOT to save the life of a mother, increases the ridiculousness of this situation.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

If you can use Shady McQuack at 8 months, you could have used him at 3.

Either way, there is NO valid reason for aborting/murdering a viable baby. Period.

And you want your CHOICE? You got it, and you CHOSE to get nekkid. Choice made. That's my version of pro-choice.

This is easy enough to say when one is a member of the majority and has broader access to a number of medical procedures, elective or otherwise, but according to the court documents, this case is not as cut and dry as it would be if you or I were to go to Planned Parenthood or another reputable gynocological clinic to seek reproductive medical treatment (for any variety of procedures).

Women of lower socioeconomic status have limited access to these types of resources, including regular gynocological visits, prenatal care, etc., and abortion is not really an exception in that regard. Because they more than likely did not have health insurance (or did not have a plan that covered abortion as a valid medical procedure), they would need to save up the money to pay for the procedure ahead of time. Because they need to save up (and an abortion, IIRC, is a fairly expensive procedure), they get later and later into their pregnancies before they can do it, which leads to higher instances of illegal abortions.

Add on to it that women of lower socioeconomic status are also more likely to be victims of sexual abuse and assault and that makes the lines extremely blurry.

I don't think anyone in this thread is saying that the type of procedures the "doctor" was performing should be legal or were not disgusting, more that his victims included both the babies delivered and the mothers, no matter how willing the participant. His alleged actions were reprehensible and if found guilty he should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by agzg

This is easy enough to say when one is a member of the majority and has broader access to a number of medical procedures, elective or otherwise ...

It's amazing we're still even having these types of conversations today, when legalized abortion has been such a huge boon to upper-middle-class white conservative America in terms of limiting things like crime and poverty-stricken social classes.

It's kind of a forest/trees thing on some level.

Either way - I don't think there are many who advocate any of these tactics (scissors? I honestly had to check to make sure it wasn't a tabloid/internet invention) - it's almost like a bad movie or video game. Unconscionable on every level, and sort of hard to even integrate into a rational mindset. Regardless of the social and legal forces that drove this into existence, what this 'clinic' did was horrible.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

It's amazing we're still even having these types of conversations today, when legalized abortion has been such a huge boon to upper-middle-class white conservative America in terms of limiting things like crime and poverty-stricken social classes.

What do you mean here? Just that it's amazing that some people still don't have access, either financially or geographically?

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by agzg

What do you mean here? Just that it's amazing that some people still don't have access, either financially or geographically?

No - although that also sucks.

I was going to send you a PM so that I didn't hijack the thread too much but it seems to be turned off - drop me a line if you want a more full explanation. I may have been speaking out of turn, or taking a lane-change for the thread.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Are you seriously saying that a VIABLE HUMAN should legally be able to be murdered?


I have two hotbutton issues. Abortion is one of them.

Infants should not be murdered. A fetus is a fetus until birth/delivery. The term murder doesn't apply to abortion although it does apply to what this non-doctor did. Feel free to say 'kill' if you like, but murder's one of those words that means what it means, not what you want it to mean.

Originally Posted by Alumiyum

I interpreted her post to mean that because it's difficult for these women to get legal abortions they were going to this doctor to get illegal ones.

This is pretty much the only reason why someone would go to this sort of doctor, because for whatever reason - late term, abuse, money, immigration status, outright fear or shame - they could not go to a licensed provider.

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

My response was more directed to the part about "severe restrictions on when they can be performed", and then her adding the comment about partial-birth...I can't even being myself to call it abortion, since you're not even TECHNICALLY aborting a pregnancy.

If you abort, you abort. Late term abortions are not something that people generally do for shits and giggles in the first place, so I'm really not getting where your rage was coming from. Think about what it would take for YOU to be in a place where you would go see a doc like this one. Why would you assume these women are any different.

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Ok, yeah, I had a real problem with that too especially with him aborting fetuses close to term.

That he had no conscience doing it and that some women went that long before having this done really turned my stomach.

As others have said, this isn't something people do because they're HAPPY about it. This is a desperation measure.

Originally Posted by agzg

They might have had valid reasons for going that long - they couldn't get an abortion at reputable places, they couldn't afford it, this was a last resort, things of that nature.

It's unfortunate that those who may actually need these procedures more often (lower socioeconomic status and all the sexual and opportunity-based implications that may have) usually have the hardest time being able to access them in safe and reputable conditions.

You are awesome.

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

If you can use Shady McQuack at 8 months, you could have used him at 3.

Either way, there is NO valid reason for aborting/murdering a viable baby. Period.

And you want your CHOICE? You got it, and you CHOSE to get nekkid. Choice made. That's my version of pro-choice.

Nice, keep your opinions out of my uterus and we're all good. But god there is so much wrong with what you said here that I can't even begin. If this were any other medical procedure no one would think of blaming the victims, but here noooooo those damn sluts should have kept their legs closed, right?

Why the hell would you think that this is something people do just because they think it's fun? If abortion was safe, legal, covered by national health insurance and didn't involve people being harassed by protesters, do you think anyone would EVER have to go to a doc like this? Hell no.

Most late-term abortions are due to issues like Down's Syndrome or genetic problems that would result in the infant's death shortly after birth. They are not because suzy couldn't "choose" not to have sex. But even if they are, I'd rather women have access to the care than do this, because this is the result when abortion is illegal or when access is restricted.

[Ghostwriter]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Infants should not be murdered. A fetus is a fetus until birth/delivery. The term murder doesn't apply to abortion although it does apply to what this non-doctor did.

The child is not a child until it exits the birth canal. If a mother decided as she was going through labor in the 9th month to kill the baby this is okay? If it is not okay then your argument is moot. It is taking a life, period. We play God, judge and executioner by claiming it is our bodies and no one can tell us what to do. The only time I would see abortion as an option is when the life of the mother is at stake and then the decision should rest with her as this is a life for a life. The baby is always innocent. The mother and father, may not be.

I go to the beaches of the outer banks of NC and see all these protected sea turtle nests. Do you know what the fine is for disturbing them? Depending on the degree of the felony between 1-5 years and from $100/egg up to $5000. We think more of the unborn turtle fetuses then we do of our own babies. This is warped and sad.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

It's amazing we're still even having these types of conversations today, when legalized abortion has been such a huge boon to upper-middle-class white conservative America in terms of limiting things like crime and poverty-stricken social classes.

It's kind of a forest/trees thing on some level.

Exactly.

The only government healthcare I would like is free abortions.

That would cut down on alot of undesirables breaking into my car and stealing stuff.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

Exactly.

The only government healthcare I would like is free abortions.

That would cut down on alot of undesirables breaking into my car and stealing stuff.

Wow.

Really.

And to think you could have been aborted too.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

That would cut down on alot of undesirables breaking into my car and stealing stuff.

Because undesirables are the only people who get abortions?

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Because undesirables are the only people who get abortions?

Right?

[honeychile]

I know that derailing a thread is a fine art, but people either feel that abortion is okay, not okay, or only okay in certain situations. I'll long ago quit trying to sway people to my point of view, but I have the right to have one.

The doctor in this thread didn't just perform abortions, he killed viable children after they were born. The argument is whether or not an unwanted living child should be allowed to be killed, or that a woman desiring an abortion should be recklessly allowed to die, or that body parts should be kept afterwards.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Because undesirables are the only people who get abortions?

Someone didn't read correctly.

It also works perfectly with my plan to rid the country of economic statists. Just give in one little bit on this issue and alot of people who will be voting for welfare checks will no longer exist.