Philadelphia abortion doctor accused of murdering patient, newborns

[AlphaFrog]

My response was more directed to the part about "severe restrictions on when they can be performed", and then her adding the comment about partial-birth...I can't even being myself to call it abortion, since you're not even TECHNICALLY aborting a pregnancy.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

My response was more directed to the part about "severe restrictions on when they can be performed", and then her adding the comment about partial-birth...I can't even being myself to call it abortion, since you're not even TECHNICALLY aborting a pregnancy.

Ok, yeah, I had a real problem with that too especially with him aborting fetuses close to term.

That he had no conscience doing it and that some women went that long before having this done really turned my stomach.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

That he had no conscience doing it and that some women went that long before having this done really turned my stomach.

They might have had valid reasons for going that long - they couldn't get an abortion at reputable places, they couldn't afford it, this was a last resort, things of that nature.

It's unfortunate that those who may actually need these procedures more often (lower socioeconomic status and all the sexual and opportunity-based implications that may have) usually have the hardest time being able to access them in safe and reputable conditions.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by agzg

They might have had valid reasons for going that long - they couldn't get an abortion at reputable places, they couldn't afford it, this was a last resort, things of that nature.

It's unfortunate that those who may actually need these procedures more often (lower socioeconomic status and all the sexual and opportunity-based implications that may have) usually have the hardest time being able to access them in safe and reputable conditions.

From what I read in the DA's report, it appears that it was indeed a facility of absolute last resort. It catered to very very very poor women, as well as immigrant women, some of whose English was not good, or had been used to unclean medical facilities. One of the former employees testified that there were a lot of African women who went there, many of whom had been victims of FGM. In the rare event that a white woman came in, there was a different waiting room and a different procedure room from the one used on women of color.

Basically, you have a lot of women who didn't know their bodies for whatever reasons; it's also believed that many of them didn't even know how far along they were.

[AlphaFrog]

Originally Posted by agzg

They might have had valid reasons for going that long - they couldn't get an abortion at reputable places, they couldn't afford it, this was a last resort, things of that nature.

It's unfortunate that those who may actually need these procedures more often (lower socioeconomic status and all the sexual and opportunity-based implications that may have) usually have the hardest time being able to access them in safe and reputable conditions.

If you can use Shady McQuack at 8 months, you could have used him at 3.

Either way, there is NO valid reason for aborting/murdering a viable baby. Period.

And you want your CHOICE? You got it, and you CHOSE to get nekkid. Choice made. That's my version of pro-choice.

[Ghostwriter]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

If you can use Shady McQuack at 8 months, you could have used him at 3.

Either way, there is NO valid reason for aborting/murdering a viable baby. Period.

And you want your CHOICE? You got it, and you CHOSE to get nekkid. Choice made. That's my version of pro-choice.

My thoughts exactly. Couldn't have said it better. We make mistakes and the innocent have to suffer. And I have to believe that the way these innocent children were murdered was particularly heinous.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

And I have to believe that the way these innocent children were murdered was particularly heinous.

That's the thing--regardless of where one lies on the pro-choice/pro-life spectrum, everyone can agree that the manner in which these procedures occurred were barbaric to say the least.

Add to that the fact that this was done after viability, in situations where it was probably NOT to save the life of a mother, increases the ridiculousness of this situation.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

If you can use Shady McQuack at 8 months, you could have used him at 3.

Either way, there is NO valid reason for aborting/murdering a viable baby. Period.

And you want your CHOICE? You got it, and you CHOSE to get nekkid. Choice made. That's my version of pro-choice.

This is easy enough to say when one is a member of the majority and has broader access to a number of medical procedures, elective or otherwise, but according to the court documents, this case is not as cut and dry as it would be if you or I were to go to Planned Parenthood or another reputable gynocological clinic to seek reproductive medical treatment (for any variety of procedures).

Women of lower socioeconomic status have limited access to these types of resources, including regular gynocological visits, prenatal care, etc., and abortion is not really an exception in that regard. Because they more than likely did not have health insurance (or did not have a plan that covered abortion as a valid medical procedure), they would need to save up the money to pay for the procedure ahead of time. Because they need to save up (and an abortion, IIRC, is a fairly expensive procedure), they get later and later into their pregnancies before they can do it, which leads to higher instances of illegal abortions.

Add on to it that women of lower socioeconomic status are also more likely to be victims of sexual abuse and assault and that makes the lines extremely blurry.

I don't think anyone in this thread is saying that the type of procedures the "doctor" was performing should be legal or were not disgusting, more that his victims included both the babies delivered and the mothers, no matter how willing the participant. His alleged actions were reprehensible and if found guilty he should be punished to the fullest extent of the law.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by agzg

This is easy enough to say when one is a member of the majority and has broader access to a number of medical procedures, elective or otherwise ...

It's amazing we're still even having these types of conversations today, when legalized abortion has been such a huge boon to upper-middle-class white conservative America in terms of limiting things like crime and poverty-stricken social classes.

It's kind of a forest/trees thing on some level.

Either way - I don't think there are many who advocate any of these tactics (scissors? I honestly had to check to make sure it wasn't a tabloid/internet invention) - it's almost like a bad movie or video game. Unconscionable on every level, and sort of hard to even integrate into a rational mindset. Regardless of the social and legal forces that drove this into existence, what this 'clinic' did was horrible.

[agzg]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

It's amazing we're still even having these types of conversations today, when legalized abortion has been such a huge boon to upper-middle-class white conservative America in terms of limiting things like crime and poverty-stricken social classes.

What do you mean here? Just that it's amazing that some people still don't have access, either financially or geographically?

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

It's amazing we're still even having these types of conversations today, when legalized abortion has been such a huge boon to upper-middle-class white conservative America in terms of limiting things like crime and poverty-stricken social classes.

It's kind of a forest/trees thing on some level.

Exactly.

The only government healthcare I would like is free abortions.

That would cut down on alot of undesirables breaking into my car and stealing stuff.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

If you can use Shady McQuack at 8 months, you could have used him at 3.

Either way, there is NO valid reason for aborting/murdering a viable baby. Period.

And you want your CHOICE? You got it, and you CHOSE to get nekkid. Choice made. That's my version of pro-choice.

If it was consensual, then yes, I would agree with you but in a lot of cases today especially talking about rampant rape and abuse, women aren't being given that choice.

[Munchkin03]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

If it was consensual, then yes, I would agree with you but in a lot of cases today especially talking about rampant rape and abuse, women aren't being given that choice.

Especially the women who were going to this clinic...from what I've read, many of these women were drug addicts, very young, and victims of domestic violence. This wasn't just a group of irresponsible young things who forgot to take the pill.

[als463]

Originally Posted by Munchkin03

Especially the women who were going to this clinic...from what I've read, many of these women were drug addicts, very young, and victims of domestic violence. This wasn't just a group of irresponsible young things who forgot to take the pill.

Victims of domestic violence are not irresponsible, I agree. Drug addicts ARE irresponsible. Also, being young is not an excuse.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by AlphaFrog

Are you seriously saying that a VIABLE HUMAN should legally be able to be murdered?


I have two hotbutton issues. Abortion is one of them.

No. I am saying that when something is illegal, someone will still provide a means to do it. This is true for drugs, alcohol, smoking, abortion, whatever. There is no statement there about whether it is right or wrong, just that it happens and that I'm not surprised.