Indiana University Recruitment

[33girl]

I think it's not just an "elitism" thing, but also a fear of chapters getting too huge, even if more chapters are added and total/quota is put into place. That's a cultural north vs south thing, and if women have never done it before and see schools that have t/q getting pledge classes of 100 or so, it's hard to make them believe it's not like that everywhere, especially if they're wary of change to begin with.

Then again, if the "elitism" factor lessens, the number of women rushing in the first place might decrease as well. It would be a fun and fine social experiment to conduct if so honking much $$$ wasn't involved.

[barnard1897]

IU women need not look to the South for an example. While these are different schools and systems, U of Illinois is on Q/T and is a fine example of a large system that works, right in the next state. Illinois has a quota averaging in the 50s. They do not have new member classes in the 100s. They have slowly extended to accommodate growing numbers, the most recent success being Alpha Xi Delta. The live-in requirements are different at each house but women do have to live in at some point.

[DeltaBetaBaby]

The funny thing about U of Illinois, though, is that the houses with a one-year live-in requirement are actually seen as more desirable than those that force you to live in for two. Many women DO live in for two years, but the flexibility is generally seen as a positive thing.

[barnard1897]

Originally Posted by DeltaBetaBaby

The funny thing about U of Illinois, though, is that the houses with a one-year live-in requirement are actually seen as more desirable than those that force you to live in for two. Many women DO live in for two years, but the flexibility is generally seen as a positive thing.

Precisely! Not one sorority alum I ever knew from U of I ever complained that they got to move out of their houses at some point. They had great sorority experiences in new member classes of 50-60 women, too.

When you consider the fact that some small Greek systems (say, 100 or fewer PNMs) across the country have quotas of 30, it is a travesty that some of the IU chapters take that same small number for their PNM classes, turning away hundreds of great women in the process.

[KSUViolet06]

^^Right, at my school, moving out = good.

Girls were more than happy to live-in their one year (or 2) and excited to get apartments junior or senior year.

Then again, we don't have the lack of apt/dorm availability that IU has. People have said that that's where the living in every year thing comes from (because if you don't, you don't have many options anyway.)

[AOEforme]

Originally Posted by barnard1897

Precisely! Not one sorority alum I ever knew from U of I ever complained that they got to move out of their houses at some point. They had great sorority experiences in new member classes of 50-60 women, too.

When you consider the fact that some small Greek systems (say, 100 or fewer PNMs) across the country have quotas of 30, it is a travesty that some of the IU chapters take that same small number for their PNM classes, turning away hundreds of great women in the process.

The thing is the Greek System at IU likes the Bed Quota. That is why it has not changed yet. The alumnae love their memories of the house and living in every year. Both the actives and the alumnae love the fact that their entire chapter is a single house. It's what makes the Greek experience at IU what it is.

My friend always mentioned that she felt bad for the few seniors who didn't live in the house because they always seemed left out. They missed so much by not living in. I think not going by Bed Quota would just increase this problem, especially in this particular style of Greek Life. (Whereas not living in house was actually a plus at my alma mater. That was simply the style of sorority life we had.)

While I don't necessarily think I would like the style of Greek Life IU has, that's what works for their campus. Who are we (those of us who are not attending/have not attended IU) to tell them what to do?

Yes, it is a shame that women are cut every year. Wonderful, beautiful, eligible women are cut at every school every year. However, another style of Greek Life--especially one such as that do found at Illinois--would probably not fly at IU. Just because it's a Big 10 school does not mean the campus feel is the same....

[DeltaBetaBaby]

Originally Posted by AOEforme

My friend always mentioned that she felt bad for the few seniors who didn't live in the house because they always seemed left out. They missed so much by not living in. I think not going by Bed Quota would just increase this problem, especially in this particular style of Greek Life. (Whereas not living in house was actually a plus at my alma mater. That was simply the style of sorority life we had.)

There's a big difference between a few seniors not living in, and all the seniors not living in. In the latter, the seniors get a couple of apartments, maybe even in the same building, and have senior nights at the house and do other such things to stay connected.

There were a few women in my pledge class who never lived in the house (at Illinois), and yes, they were left out. But by senior year, most people would like to live in a place where they are allowed to have alcohol and boys. I actually lived with three women who were not in my sorority, and never felt left out, because I could still drop by the house any time I want.

I realize they like the way it is now, and change is scary, but I really don't think there is anything SO special about IU that, if they went to Q/T, anybody would be bitching about it five years from now.

[Barbie's_Rush]

I know it varies because of the difference in physical house sizes, but what's the general size range when it comes to chapter membership numbers?

[33girl]

Originally Posted by barnard1897

When you consider the fact that some small Greek systems (say, 100 or fewer PNMs) across the country have quotas of 30, it is a travesty that some of the IU chapters take that same small number for their PNM classes, turning away hundreds of great women in the process.

If a system with 100 or fewer PNMs has a quota of 30, that means there are only 3 sororities. Many women would not like that situation. It also often means (Tom Earp brought this up re his campus and he wasn't wrong) that the groups who are there have been there forEVer and a new group has an exceptionally hard time coming on campus.

Honestly, I don't see this as a "travesty." That's a bit hyperbolic. Every chapter/organization has the right to choose members as they see fit. If a group on a Q/T system chooses to take under quota or under total, as long as their HQ oks it, that IS their prerogative. I mean if KKG at LSU wants to take 10 women in the next rush, that's up to them. If IU was such a ginormous problem and a threat to Greek life as we know it, all the national groups who are there would have gotten together a while ago and put out the word to their IU chapters that they MUST change to Q/T and their Panhel rep MUST vote that way.

I'm just boiling it down to this, and maybe I'm putting it on too personal a level, but whatever: I don't want my sorority going to a campus that doesn't really want it there, whether it's this situation, whether it's locals being forced against their will to go national or die out, whether it's a wrongminded Greek advisor pushing it through. Mine is one of the groups that's not there, so we could be impacted by this and I don't want the impact to be a negative one because it could harm us across the board. It's well and good to say "yay, expansion, change it up!" when it's really not going to affect you. It's kind of like the people who were giant AI cheerleaders when their orgs did AI as often as Halley's Comet comes by.

[Sister Havana]

Chapters are around 100-110 members, give or take a few, if I remember correctly.

[barnard1897]

Originally Posted by 33girl

If a system with 100 or fewer PNMs has a quota of 30, that means there are only 3 sororities. Many women would not like that situation. It also often means (Tom Earp brought this up re his campus and he wasn't wrong) that the groups who are there have been there forEVer and a new group has an exceptionally hard time coming on campus.

Honestly, I don't see this as a "travesty." That's a bit hyperbolic. Every chapter/organization has the right to choose members as they see fit. If a group on a Q/T system chooses to take under quota or under total, as long as their HQ oks it, that IS their prerogative. I mean if KKG at LSU wants to take 10 women in the next rush, that's up to them. If IU was such a ginormous problem and a threat to Greek life as we know it, all the national groups who are there would have gotten together a while ago and put out the word to their IU chapters that they MUST change to Q/T and their Panhel rep MUST vote that way.

I'm just boiling it down to this, and maybe I'm putting it on too personal a level, but whatever: I don't want my sorority going to a campus that doesn't really want it there, whether it's this situation, whether it's locals being forced against their will to go national or die out, whether it's a wrongminded Greek advisor pushing it through. Mine is one of the groups that's not there, so we could be impacted by this and I don't want the impact to be a negative one because it could harm us across the board. It's well and good to say "yay, expansion, change it up!" when it's really not going to affect you. It's kind of like the people who were giant AI cheerleaders when their orgs did AI as often as Halley's Comet comes by.

Yes, a quota of 30 would translate into a campus with 3 chapters, in other words, a SMALL Greek campus. Thus, a campus with 19 chapters should not have that as quota at approximately 1/4 of the houses. It is seriously hurting the system when a large number of women are being turned away from membership. The whole point of setting quota under the q/t system is to maximize the number of women a chapter may pledge.

If it is true that the number of members a chapter may take is purely based on its own prerogative, then why are these chapters part of NPC organizations that promote the use of q/t? I don't know of a single NPC leader who would be ok with purposely bidding under quota or total. I can only speak for my own GLO's policies, where, even if a chapter is 1 under quota or total, they must recruit informally or snap bid to get to those numbers set by the CPH.

Many national level leaders of NPC groups do not agree with the IU system and they have reached out to their chapters there repeatedly. IU has a very strong alum network coming out of those sorority chapters, and nationals could risk alienating that strong base of "this is how we've always done it" folks, so it's not as simple as just mandating a q/t adoption. NPC has stepped in with a slew of recommendations, and one was for a change in the recruitment party structure. That has taken place. I would not be surprised if more changes will eventually occur there. They are taking baby steps.

When NPC's belief statement reads: "The young woman who wants fraternity experience will find it possible to belong on most campuses today" and the chapters at IU are not all working towards that as a goal, I do think there is a serious concern that cannot be dismissed as "their prerogative." As I am sure many GCers would agree, we personally cherish our sorority experiences and would not trade them for anything. I feel it is a unique, special time in one's college life, and while we in NPC do not promise membership, we do promote the chance for every woman who wants it to have the fairest structure in which to do so. I do not feel I am being the least bit hyperbolic in saying that the IU system's denial of membership to many hundreds of women, based on the structure and not the individual qualities of these women, is a travesty. Most women do not get a second chance if they can't get a bid as a freshman. It's not impossible as a sophomore, but undoubtedly the odds are stacked against an upperclassman.

I personally would not favor expansion at a school that has not done all it can within its existing system to increase membership opportunities.

[pinkmama]

I went to IU and graduated in 1996. I remember rush and how some of the hardest cuts are for grades. If a house has a 2.75 GPA minimum, we would cut almost everygirl that was below a 3.0 since there were so many to still choose from.

I remember some great girls on my dorm floor getting serious cuts from 19 party to 14 party. They were often girls that had the minimum GPA but less than a 3.0. We never understood it until I was in my house and realized that we would try to release girls that only had the minimum GPA.

I know there is a huge wooded section across the street from Fisher Court (the cul d sac) on the extenstion. If that is a buildable area, it's big enough to fit two houses.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by barnard1897

It is seriously hurting the system when a large number of women are being turned away from membership.

Actually, it is hurting the impression that NPC wants to give (see the "belief statement") that everyone can join a sorority. I don't think this is the truth, and I honestly doubt that most sorority members do either. I'm sure that all those NPC leaders cut women for dumb reasons AND good reasons during their collegiate years.

Do IU sorority members generally stay active throughout all four years of college? Are they involved and enthusiastic alumnae?

Originally Posted by barnard1897

I don't know of a single NPC leader who would be ok with purposely bidding under quota or total. I can only speak for my own GLO's policies, where, even if a chapter is 1 under quota or total, they must recruit informally or snap bid to get to those numbers set by the CPH.

NPC leaders =/= students who are actually joining the groups, members who actually have to live with (as in interact day to day, not literally live) the new members who are chosen and alumnae who are supporting the groups. See my response to the next paragraph:

Originally Posted by barnard1897

When NPC's belief statement reads: "The young woman who wants fraternity experience will find it possible to belong on most campuses today" and the chapters at IU are not all working towards that as a goal, I do think there is a serious concern that cannot be dismissed as "their prerogative." As I am sure many GCers would agree, we personally cherish our sorority experiences and would not trade them for anything. I feel it is a unique, special time in one's college life, and while we in NPC do not promise membership, we do promote the chance for every woman who wants it to have the fairest structure in which to do so. I do not feel I am being the least bit hyperbolic in saying that the IU system's denial of membership to many hundreds of women, based on the structure and not the individual qualities of these women, is a travesty. Most women do not get a second chance if they can't get a bid as a freshman. It's not impossible as a sophomore, but undoubtedly the odds are stacked against an upperclassman.

I personally would not favor expansion at a school that has not done all it can within its existing system to increase membership opportunities.

How is IU's system any less fair than the SEC schools where women must have recs to get anywhere (even if the school's website says the exact opposite), sophomores are considered Methuselah, and a huge number of legacies exist making the opportunities for non-legacies slim in some chapters? With the amount of women interested in sorority membership at these schools, I think they could very easily each have large chapters of all 26 NPC sororities. Why haven't they increased membership opportunities in that way? (You don't have to answer. We all know why.)

Yeah, maybe a lot of good women are getting overlooked at IU, but it's HARDLY the only place where that is happening. They're just being a little more straight up about it.

[barnard1897]

Like so many others engaged in the debate, we can certainly agree to disagree ad infinitum as to whether IU's system is fair or right for the PNMs on that campus. But in my APH, there are 3 actively involved IU alums from different NPC groups, and all of them agree that the recruitment system makes for a grueling, disheartening process, even for those who end up in a chapter. Every year, there are 50+ freshmen from our area who go through at IU, and even armed with recs, top grades, legacy connections and all the bells and whistles, as many as 1/3 to 1/2 will come out empty handed. We have seen women go through every stage of recruitment, attend 3 preference events, and come up short of a bid. That is simply not right.

I'd like to see their CPH find more creative approaches to the situation. Even if each of the smaller houses on that campus agreed to take 10 more NMs, that could translate into 40-50 more women in a house. Given average attrition rates in NM classes, the housing situation probably wouldn't suffer a hiccup with 10 more women per house. Changing to q/t would be a sea change, but there are alternatives that could be explored. There doesn't have to be a huge culture change all at once. I would think as an active in those houses, it would really be difficult to meet so many great PNMs and know that most of them could not be a sister, solely because not enough beds were emptying that year.

[Titchou]

Wait a minute, 33Girl. Quite a few SEC schools now have upperclass quota so that's no longer an issue. And as long as you "meet the requirements for membership" (have proper grades, activities, have a rec) and "maximize your options", you will get a bid at an SEC school. Almost every one of them guarantee that now. Yes, I know women who didn't get bids there - and in almost every case, I can tell you why. You can't service the whole football team even if you are valedictorian and get a bid. Not happening. Nor can you think because you are a triple legacy at AAA that it's going to get you in. Competitive? Yes. But some women just don't meet the qualifications even though the little princess may think she does. And since most CPHs will let anyone sign up - with no grade requirement because NPC frowns on that - you know going in some are going to get released for grades on the first day. Fact of life.