Funding cuts leave many without home heating assistance in Macon

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

IMHO, selling your 50" flatscreen isn't going to get you very far

That depends on how far you expect to get. Desperate times call for desperate, legal measures. That woman not only has a big flat screen TV, she also has what looks like a video game system and another technology item in that photo. She's "free" to own those items but she's also "free" to try to sell them if she needs help.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

and buying a six pack of beer with your own hard earned money even when you need food stamps does not rise to the label of FRAUD.

"Fraud" is an unnecessary label because it implies illegality. It is only illegal if you use the food stamps to purchase the items--stores are not supposed to allow people to do that. "Dumb" or "inappropriate" are more appropriate labels depending on the context. Many people who live paycheck to paycheck would be more well off if they put $50 in their savings accounts and lessened the frequency at which they consume alcohol and tobacco products. Many of these people aren't just consuming alcohol and/or tobacco products on the weekends or special occasions, they are doing so everyday. Corner marts and liquor stores are elated and many of these are located in lower income areas of cities for a reason.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

There are a lot of hardworking people who are out of work because of the state of our economy who are no different than the average American who has no money tucked away for a rainy day.

Of course they are no different. Not saving money sets the stage for not having a cushion during hard times (unemployment, underemployment, emergencies, etc).

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

That depends on how far you expect to get. Desperate times call for desperate, legal measures. That woman not only has a big flat screen TV, she also has what looks like a video game system and another technology item in that photo. She's "free" to own those items but she's also "free" to try to sell them if she needs help.



"Fraud" is an unnecessary label because it implies illegality. It is only illegal if you use the food stamps to purchase the items--stores are not supposed to allow people to do that. "Dumb" or "inappropriate" are more appropriate labels depending on the context. Many people who live paycheck to paycheck would be more well off if they put $50 in their savings accounts and lessened the frequency at which they consume alcohol and tobacco products. Many of these people aren't just consuming alcohol and/or tobacco products on the weekends or special occasions, they are doing so everyday. Corner marts and liquor stores are elated and many of these are located in lower income areas of cities for a reason.



Of course they are no different. Not saving money sets the stage for not having a cushion during hard times (unemployment, underemployment, emergencies, etc).

Exactly. Fraud is an ugly word. I think every person who criticizes could probably look at their own finances and find items they waste their own money on and could stand to save more. Fraud, as you said, implies that they are breaking the law or are unethical at the least. As for her TV, etc., she could sell it, but who knows what someone would pay for it and how long that money would last to pay her bills, rent, etc. An xbox isn't likely to fetch much on the used market. The truth of the matter is that the government doesn't want us to save money. The economy NEEDS us to spend, spend, spend to grow the economy which leads to a large number of people left vulnerable to this situation.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Exactly. Fraud is an ugly word. I think every person who criticizes could probably look at their own finances and find items they waste their own money on and could stand to save more. Fraud, as you said, implies that they are breaking the law or are unethical at the least. As for her TV, etc., she could sell it, but who knows what someone would pay for it and how long that money would last to pay her bills, rent, etc. An xbox isn't likely to fetch much on the used market. The truth of the matter is that the government doesn't want us to save money. The economy NEEDS us to spend, spend, spend to grow the economy which leads to a large number of people left vulnerable to this situation.

Caught the tail end of an interesting interview that had someone - a student I thought - who had developed a method for modifying our credit scores to be more than credit scores, but to include saving as well. I thought it was a good idea.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I think every person who criticizes could probably look at their own finances and find items they waste their own money on and could stand to save more.

If those people who criticize have saved money and are building some level of wealth, they can "waste" a percentage of their own money.

I know that people who live paycheck to paycheck are often unable to save money (although, putting $20 in a savings account per month is better than spending to your last cent if you don't have to) and that's why this topic is also based on where people are situated. There are people whose wasteful spending lends itself to immediately needing financial assistance during hard times. Financial literacy programs in the Black community, for example, are based on the premise of financial freedom to spend your money however you choose. But that freedom comes with financial responsibility so that tax payers do not end up footing the bill. Those who see that reality as being critical or judgmental will have to get over it.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

As for her TV, etc., she could sell it, but who knows what someone would pay for it and how long that money would last to pay her bills, rent, etc. An xbox isn't likely to fetch much on the used market.

People who are truly truly truly struggling will try and see how much they can get for whatever they are able to sell. Assuming that you won't get much money is much less productive than seeing how much money you are able to get for it.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

If those people who criticize have saved money and are building some level of wealth, they can "waste" a percentage of their own money.

I know that people who live paycheck to paycheck are often unable to save money (although, putting $20 in a savings account per month is better than spending to your last cent if you don't have to) and that's why this topic is also based on where people are situated. There are people whose wasteful spending lends itself to immediately needing financial assistance during hard times. Financial literacy programs in the Black community, for example, are based on the premise of financial freedom to spend your money however you choose. But that freedom comes with financial responsibility so that tax payers do not end up footing the bill. Those who see that reality as being critical or judgmental will have to get over it.



People who are truly truly truly struggling will try and see how much they can get for whatever they are able to sell. Assuming that you won't get much money is much less productive than seeing how much money you are able to get for it.

It's no easier to know who in the group criticizing is any more responsible than those in the group being criticized. I understand that people who are desperate will try to sell anything and everything to get by. Hell, drug addicts will sell their mothers for a hit, but you could also look at it as a waste of money to take a $2000 investment and sell it for a pittance when you think you'll get back on your feet in just a few weeks. I'm sure that's the mentality of people in this situation. Everybody thinks they are middle class and that middle class people deserve a big screen tv and all the amenities. I'm not saying their right, but it's the mentality of Americans. You take the same people bitching about the unemployed and people on welfare and put them in that situation, and they'd do no better. Nobody saves money. We have unprecedented levels of credit card debt. I have a great job, make more than an average salary, but with my debt burden from school, mortgage, car loans, etc, it would take no time for me to burn through my considerable savings. I am just fortunate enough to have the advantage of job security due to an extreme shortage of radiologists in this country. I don't think that gives me the right to be smug and look down on those who aren't are fortunately situated or didn't put away money in savings when they could have. Hindsight, after all is 20/20.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

I don't think that gives me the right to be smug and look down on those who aren't are fortunately situated or didn't put away money in savings when they could have.

I don't see where being smug and looking down on anyone is even part of this discussion. That may be what this topic is fundamentally about to some people but that isn't what this topic is about to me.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Hindsight, after all is 20/20.

The point is that foresight is 20/20 and that is what many supporters of financial literacy programs and financial assistance programs are hoping people of all income levels will learn.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I don't see where being smug and looking down on anyone is even part of this discussion. That may be what this topic is fundamentally about to some people but that isn't what this topic is about to me.



The point is that foresight is 20/20 and that is what many supporters of financial literacy programs and financial assistance programs are hoping people of all income levels will learn.

I'm not arguing the benefit of the financial literacy programs you're discussing. I think they are very useful. I agree that all income levels could use help learning to spend within their means and save for a rainy day. That being said, some days are rainier than many people can save for.

[aggieAXO]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

It's no easier to know who in the group criticizing is any more responsible than those in the group being criticized. I understand that people who are desperate will try to sell anything and everything to get by. Hell, drug addicts will sell their mothers for a hit, but you could also look at it as a waste of money to take a $2000 investment and sell it for a pittance when you think you'll get back on your feet in just a few weeks. I'm sure that's the mentality of people in this situation. Everybody thinks they are middle class and that middle class people deserve a big screen tv and all the amenities. I'm not saying their right, but it's the mentality of Americans. You take the same people bitching about the unemployed and people on welfare and put them in that situation, and they'd do no better. Nobody saves money. We have unprecedented levels of credit card debt. I have a great job, make more than an average salary, but with my debt burden from school, mortgage, car loans, etc, it would take no time for me to burn through my considerable savings. I am just fortunate enough to have the advantage of job security due to an extreme shortage of radiologists in this country. I don't think that gives me the right to be smug and look down on those who aren't are fortunately situated or didn't put away money in savings when they could have. Hindsight, after all is 20/20.

Actually, saying that no one saves is quite a broad statement. I save every month b/c I see what happens when you don't. I have very little debt and what debt I do have I can pay off if I needed to immediately (0% interest credit card). I deal with people everyday that say they have absolutely no way of paying me yet have nicely manicured nails, a coach purse and an iphone. Sometimes after they tell me they will have to sign a promise to pay for services (which less than 1% come back and pay) they need to go get something to eat while"Fluffy" is getting treated-HELLO, you obviously have some money if you are going to dinner. If my dog were ill or I needed to pay for heat I would pawn whatever I needed-many people won't give it a second thought. I see people taking advantage of the system everyday.
BTW my TV is from 1992-works great!

[aggieAXO]

BTW AOII Angel do you work with the general public? or is it mainly through insurance/referral? Just curious.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by aggieAXO

a couch purse

Those damn couch purses!

[aggieAXO]

oops fixed it

[als463]

Originally Posted by aggieAXO

Actually, saying that no one saves is quite a broad statement. I save every month b/c I see what happens when you don't. I have very little debt and what debt I do have I can pay off if I needed to immediately (0% interest credit card). I deal with people everyday that say they have absolutely no way of paying me yet have nicely manicured nails, a coach purse and an iphone. Sometimes after they tell me they will have to sign a promise to pay for services (which less than 1% come back and pay) they need to go get something to eat while"Fluffy" is getting treated-HELLO, you obviously have some money if you are going to dinner. If my dog were ill or I needed to pay for heat I would pawn whatever I needed-many people won't give it a second thought. I see people taking advantage of the system everyday.
BTW my TV is from 1992-works great!

If I wasn't so dumb with computers, I would put up a graphic of people standing and clapping. I pretty much liked everything you had to say. Thank you!

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Exactly. Fraud is an ugly word. I think every person who criticizes could probably look at their own finances and find items they waste their own money on and could stand to save more. Fraud, as you said, implies that they are breaking the law or are unethical at the least. As for her TV, etc., she could sell it, but who knows what someone would pay for it and how long that money would last to pay her bills, rent, etc. An xbox isn't likely to fetch much on the used market. The truth of the matter is that the government doesn't want us to save money. The economy NEEDS us to spend, spend, spend to grow the economy which leads to a large number of people left vulnerable to this situation.

The economy may want you to spend but it doesn't force you to spend. That's your choice. There are households with an income of $30,000 that are financially better off debt to income than households with an income of $80,000. Why is that? < hypothetical question.

Yes the TV looks bad IMHO, because there are households that are self-supporting and responsible enough to pay their own bills and because of that have never been able to afford such flashy luxuries. I'm sure they find it disheartening to find out people in the same income bracket as them get all this "help" while they live modestly.

I make a decent living (for myself), put in a good amount to my 401k and savings, donated $3,000 this year to AIDS Research Alliance and the West Texas Food Bank but guess what????? I still canceled my cable this year prepared ALL of my lunches at home and I've never been able to afford* a TV like the one in the picture. Not everyone spends as stupidly as you insinuate.

-If you expect tax payers to foot your food bill because you'd rather spend your money on alcohol, tobacco or drugs, IMHO that IS unethical.


*Just cuz you can pay for something doesn't mean you can afford it.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

The economy may want you to spend but it doesn't force you to spend. That's your choice. There are households with an income of $30,000 that are financially better off debt to income than households with an income of $80,000. Why is that? < hypothetical question.

Yes the TV looks bad IMHO, because there are households that are self-supporting and responsible enough to pay their own bills and because of that have never been able to afford such flashy luxuries. I'm sure they find it disheartening to find out people in the same income bracket as them get all this "help" while they live modestly.

I make a decent living (for myself), put in a good amount to my 401k and savings, donated $3,000 this year to AIDS Research Alliance and the West Texas Food Bank but guess what????? I still canceled my cable this year prepared ALL of my lunches at home and I've never been able to afford* a TV like the one in the picture. Not everyone spends as stupidly as you insinuate.

-If you expect tax payers to foot your food bill because you'd rather spend your money on alcohol, tobacco or drugs, IMHO that IS unethical.


*Just cuz you can pay for something doesn't mean you can afford it.

N of 1 is not good enough to wipe away the evidence of gross American excess. Yes, you are a good person and save your money like a good boy. Excellent! The vast majority of Americans don't and haven't. Most Americans who are ready to retire have little money with which to retire. Most Americans carry more debt on their credit cards than they will ever be able to pay off, especially as they only pay the minimum off each month. You take the average American and put them in the unemployment line for a few months, and I'd like to see how great they look. Are they irresponsible? Duh. Is it wide spread? Absolutely. So, they're tax money is paying for the idiotic decisions they are making that have already caught up with people less fortunate than them. Don't forget that the ones collecting benefits were probably paying taxes before they fell on hard times, too.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

N of 1 is not good enough to wipe away the evidence of gross American excess. Yes, you are a good person and save your money like a good boy. Excellent! The vast majority of Americans don't and haven't. Most Americans who are ready to retire have little money with which to retire. Most Americans carry more debt on their credit cards than they will ever be able to pay off, especially as they only pay the minimum off each month. You take the average American and put them in the unemployment line for a few months, and I'd like to see how great they look. Are they irresponsible? Duh. Is it wide spread? Absolutely. So, they're tax money is paying for the idiotic decisions they are making that have already caught up with people less fortunate than them. Don't forget that the ones collecting benefits were probably paying taxes before they fell on hard times, too.

Ummm.....Then it's ok than to spend every last penny you have? You say that these people are irresponsible and admit they put themselves in this situation yet you clear them of any responsibility and talk as if it's "not their fault".