Tennessee Firemen Ignore Burning House Over Unpaid Subscription Fee

[AGDee]

I had this incredibly intelligent and well thought out <grin> post written last night and put it in the wrong thread. I deleted it without copying it first so I will try to re-create it.

In my own perception of local government, I think that their primary purposes are providing: 1) law enforcement, 2) fire protection/paramedics, 3) waste disposal, 4) maintenance of roads and 5) run elections. I see these items as the essential services needed to maintain a municipality for the good of the community as a whole in a democratic society whether performed by actual government workers or a privatized company hired by the municipality. Other things that they do such as maintain libraries, parks and recs programs, zoning/building codes all seem to be less important functions. When paying my taxes, those first five are the things I expect to get for my money. If they aren't doing these things, what in the world are they doing?

I simply cannot comprehend why this would not be a fee built into the taxes and then paid to the other city/township/municipality as a whole for the good of the entire community. When we see acres and acres destroyed by wild fires every year, it is in everybody's best interest to have fire protection built into basic taxes. Do we really want to rely on each individual paying a subscription fee to prevent massive damage from a wild fire? I just cannot understand that mentality. If it only affected that one person, fine. A fire does not just affect one person/household if allowed to spread.

I do think they did the right thing given the system in place. I think the system in place is severely flawed.

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I had this incredibly intelligent and well thought out <grin> post written last night and put it in the wrong thread. I deleted it without copying it first so I will try to re-create it.

In my own perception of local government, I think that their primary purposes are providing: 1) law enforcement, 2) fire protection/paramedics, 3) waste disposal, 4) maintenance of roads and 5) run elections. I see these items as the essential services needed to maintain a municipality for the good of the community as a whole in a democratic society whether performed by actual government workers or a privatized company hired by the municipality. Other things that they do such as maintain libraries, parks and recs programs, zoning/building codes all seem to be less important functions. When paying my taxes, those first five are the things I expect to get for my money. If they aren't doing these things, what in the world are they doing?

I simply cannot comprehend why this would not be a fee built into the taxes and then paid to the other city/township/municipality as a whole for the good of the entire community. When we see acres and acres destroyed by wild fires every year, it is in everybody's best interest to have fire protection built into basic taxes. Do we really want to rely on each individual paying a subscription fee to prevent massive damage from a wild fire? I just cannot understand that mentality. If it only affected that one person, fine. A fire does not just affect one person/household if allowed to spread.

I do think they did the right thing given the system in place. I think the system in place is severely flawed.

The firefighters were basically contracting with the rural city. In essence, it was "We're not supposed to be covering your area, but we've decided to add to our workload and help you out. If you want us to help, pay this fee."

IIRC, this was implemented in 1990, so it isn't like this was something new. They know the risk that comes along with not paying for this insurance (just like we know the risk that comes along with not paying for car, life, home, vision, dental, etc insurance) and they chose to ignore it.

It sucks that they lost everything, but them's the breaks. I can guarantee that if anyone "lost it all" from any of those other types of insurance, no one would bat an eye.

[AGDee]

Yes, I understand that and support their actions, given the circumstances. My point is that the circumstances are poor. We have had communities that made the decision to eliminate some services and other municipalities have taken over the actual service, but the original municipality collected the taxes and then paid the other city for the service. This seems like a better way to handle it to me.

[SWTXBelle]

FWIW - In an interview the owner said everything was insured.

[PeppyGPhiB]

After reading all of this, there's one thing I still can't believe...

People in the midwest have Earthquake Insurance? I live on the Ring of Fire, and I don't have Earthquake Insurance. I don't know anyone here in Seattle who has it, and we have lots of faults running all over the place. The only people I know with EI live in California. A 5.0 is a pretty small earthquake, one that won't cause any significant - if any - damage. We have them in the west pretty regularly and sometimes you can't even really feel them.

Earthquake insurance in the midwest is as necessary as tornado insurance is in the west. In other words, ridiculous.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

Earthquake insurance in the midwest is as necessary as tornado insurance is in the west. In other words, ridiculous.

New Madrid Fault Line.

[PeppyGPhiB]

From Wikipedia:

About 90% of the world's earthquakes and 80% of the world's largest earthquakes occur along the Ring of Fire. The next most seismic region (5–6% of earthquakes and 17% of the world's largest earthquakes) is the Alpide belt, which extends from Java to Sumatra through the Himalayas, the Mediterranean, and out into the Atlantic. The Mid-Atlantic Ridge is the third most prominent earthquake belt.[2][3]

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

After reading all of this, there's one thing I still can't believe...

People in the midwest have Earthquake Insurance? I live on the Ring of Fire, and I don't have Earthquake Insurance. I don't know anyone here in Seattle who has it, and we have lots of faults running all over the place. The only people I know with EI live in California. A 5.0 is a pretty small earthquake, one that won't cause any significant - if any - damage. We have them in the west pretty regularly and sometimes you can't even really feel them.

Earthquake insurance in the midwest is as necessary as tornado insurance is in the west. In other words, ridiculous.

Nobody has earthquake insurance - it's exceptionally rare (and incredibly expensive). That was the point I was making - for the most part, earthquake coverage is a very bad investment.

[PeppyGPhiB]

Originally Posted by KSig RC

Nobody has earthquake insurance - it's exceptionally rare (and incredibly expensive). That was the point I was making - for the most part, earthquake coverage is a very bad investment.

But then someone responded that there's a fault in Missouri that caused a 5.0 a few years ago and a 6.something about 120 years ago, as if that was good cause for, as you said, very expensive earthquake insurance.

[Elephant Walk]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

But then someone responded that there's a fault in Missouri that caused a 5.0 a few years ago and a 6.something about 120 years ago, as if that was good cause for, as you said, very expensive earthquake insurance.

I take it they don't teach geography or history at Pepperdine?

From the cornerstone of American knowledge Wikipedia on the New Madrid Earthquake of 1812:

Some sections of the Mississippi River appeared to run backward for a short time.[2] Sand blows were common throughout the area, and can still be seen from the air in cultivated fields. The shockwaves propagated efficiently through midwestern bedrock. Residents as far away as Pittsburgh and Norfolk were awakened by intense shaking.[4] Church bells were reported to ring as far as Boston, Massachusetts and York, Ontario (now Toronto) and sidewalks were reported to have been cracked and broken in Washington, D.C.[5] There were also reports of toppled chimneys in Maine.

Now, that was nearly 200 years ago but:

The zone remains active today. In recent decades minor earthquakes have continued.[5] New forecasts estimate a 7 to 10 percent chance, in the next 50 years, of a repeat of a major earthquake like those that occurred in 1811–1812, which likely had magnitudes of between 7.5 and 8.0. There is a 25 to 40 percent chance, in a 50-year time span, of a magnitude 6.0 or greater earthquake.[13]

And catastrophe:

In a report filed in November 2008, The U.S. Federal Emergency Management Agency warned that a serious earthquake in the New Madrid Seismic Zone could result in "the highest economic losses due to a natural disaster in the United States," further predicting "widespread and catastrophic" damage across Alabama, Arkansas, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Mississippi, Missouri and particularly Tennessee, where a 7.7 magnitude quake or greater would cause damage to tens of thousands of structures affecting water distribution, transportation systems, and other vital infrastructure.[14]

I say this, because my parents hold earthquake insurance on their house because they live pretty close to the New Madrid fault.

[aephi alum]

My own personal opinion is that the fire department should have put the fire out. They had gone out there anyway, in case a neighboring house whose owners had paid the fee caught fire (which happened - and I have to wonder how those neighbors feel now that they have to deal with fire damage). So they should have rescued any people or pets that needed rescuing, and extinguished the fire. And then they should have slapped the homeowners with a huge fee. Of course, then you have to think about whether the homeowners would have paid the huge fee, given that the fire is now out...

I live in an area where some services are municipal and some must be contracted for privately. Police, fire, recycling, snow plowing for my street, are all covered in my property taxes. Water and sewer are not - I'm on well and septic. Garbage collection other than recycling is also not paid for by my property taxes. I bought the house knowing I'd be paying monthly for trash removal, and paying a septic company every couple of years to pump my septic tank, and paying a plumber as needed if something went wrong with the well - and if I didn't pay, there would be consequences - uncollected garbage, backed-up septic, no water.

These people bought their house knowing that they would have to pay an annual fee if they wanted the fire department to take care of them, and that if they didn't pay, there would be consequences. I just think the consequences in their case should have been a hefty fine rather than homelessness.

[Elephant Walk]

And....?

[thetygerlily]

Ah, thanks KS. I got lost in the earthquake talk.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

But then someone responded that there's a fault in Missouri that caused a 5.0 a few years ago and a 6.something about 120 years ago, as if that was good cause for, as you said, very expensive earthquake insurance.

So you didn't actually read what I said which included an acknowledgment that I could be wrong? A+ reading skills.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

For whatever reason that none of us are privy to (though I can imagine it might have had to do with county residents not wanting to be taxed anymore than they already were), the elected government officials in this particular county chose to contract with fire departments to make fire protection a subscription service rather than to automatically provide it to all residents through taxation. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume with local government of this kind that if contituents had wanted it done differently, they would have been able to pursuade their elected officials to do it differently or would have elected new people.

I can see the arguments as to why it's bad policy, but I can also see that this is democratic local government in action -- they can weigh the policy considerations for themselves and decide how they want to handle it. We can second guess them all we want to, but they get to make the call for themselves.

Sure it's democratic government in action, that doesn't make it a good idea. I'm not proposing on driving in there and overthrowing the county government in a coup, I'm criticizing the decisions of said government.

[DrPhil]

It's always amusing when relatively uninteresting threads end up in Weirdville.