White flight? Suburbs lose young whites to cities

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

What urban sprawl? I don't see any city getting bigger, only more subdivisions. That is suburban sprawl.

White flight was wrong. I think gentrification will be good in the long run. I don't think historic neighborhoods should be torn down, and place-names should definitely be kept. But I don't think re-devolpement of urban areas should be halted just because poor people might have to move. Thtat's a pretty weak line of reasoning in my view.

Some cities (particularly, in the South) have plenty of space surrounding them. In the event that they don't, they sometimes take over some of the surrounding cities (IIRC, this happened in San Antonio and Houston).

And it's not necessarily just "dirt-poor" residents that are being displaced -- sometimes, it's "not-as-wealthy" people that are being moved.

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by knight_shadow

Some cities (particularly, in the South) have plenty of space surrounding them. In the event that they don't, they sometimes take over some of the surrounding cities (IIRC, this happened in San Antonio and Houston).

And it's not necessarily just "dirt-poor" residents that are being displaced -- sometimes, it's "not-as-wealthy" people that are being moved.

Yeah but, in Virginia at least, it's a moot point. Cities aren't allowed to expand by law. They be reshaped, I think, but they have to stay the same size. They can't grow.

But leaving blight where it is doesn't solve the issue of blight either. So why not move it?

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

Yeah but, in Virginia at least, it's a moot point. Cities aren't allowed to expand by law. They be reshaped, I think, but they have to stay the same size. They can't grow.

But leaving blight where it is doesn't solve the issue of blight either. So why not move it?

Virginia isn't really representative of many states, though.

And moving the issue around will work until another shift occurs. The goal should be getting to the root cause.

I think some people are forgetting that gentrification doesn't ALWAYS occur around "slums" or "hoods" -- sometimes, "not as wealthy" places are chosen as the "new urban meccas."

[DaemonSeid]

Yeah, I forgot, your daddy will protect you.

Hold on tight to his skirts, his money will keep you warm.

Gosh you have no clues...none.

I can't waste anymore time with you.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Yeah, I forgot, your daddy will protect you.

Hold on tight to his skirts, his money will keep you warm.

Gosh you have no clues...none.

I can't waste anymore time with you.

For some reason, these threads always end up with you bashing me personally for whatever reason. As if my excellent financial security, good job, great wife, nice yard, meager trust fund, well behaved dog, etc. have a damn thing to do with anything here.

Tell me this, o relative of a victim of gentrification, what did your mother do to help stave off the criminal element in her neighborhood? No doubt she raised good kids, , but aside from that, Anything?

What have you done?

You did nothing, then blamed the development companies for taking advantage of a strong demand for urban housing and depressed property values... As if you couldn't or shouldn't have seen that coming thirty years ago.

I guess it boils down to this -- the same folks who you apparently think of as victims are folks I think are deserving of their situations. They should have fought the conditions which led to the blight or they should have moved out before their property values were dramatically affected. That's the reality of "white flight," a nasty term which is easier to say than "middle class exodus" or "non-criminals not wishing to live near criminals." In most cases, you're talking about homeowners who in retrospect have made excellent decisions to get out while the gettin' was good.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by Kevin

For some reason, these threads always end up with you bashing me personally for whatever reason. As if my excellent financial security, good job, great wife, nice yard, meager trust fund, well behaved dog, etc. have a damn thing to do with anything here.

Tell me this, o relative of a victim of gentrification, what did your mother do to help stave off the criminal element in her neighborhood? No doubt she raised good kids, , but aside from that, Anything?

What have you done?

You did nothing, then blamed the development companies for taking advantage of a strong demand for urban housing and depressed property values... As if you couldn't or shouldn't have seen that coming thirty years ago.

I guess it boils down to this -- the same folks who you apparently think of as victims are folks I think are deserving of their situations. They should have fought the conditions which led to the blight or they should have moved out before their property values were dramatically affected. That's the reality of "white flight," a nasty term which is easier to say than "middle class exodus" or "non-criminals not wishing to live near criminals." In most cases, you're talking about homeowners who in retrospect have made excellent decisions to get out while the gettin' was good.

You. have. no. clue.

You have no idea what my people went through trying to maintain a property in that area that Johns Hopkins was all too happy to buy up.

You need to stay in your lane on this because you don't have any idea at all how things work in Baltimore and larger cities in general, about how Baltimore is ill prepared in handling criminal elements and moreso how they play the shell game with people.


I laugh at you hollering about "well, common citizens should band together to fight crime...that'll fix it."

Yes people SHOULD but for more than painfully obvious reasons (one being police ineptitude along with apathy and the other being FEAR of the criminal element) regular citizens don't have the luxury of expecting the police to help.

Why do I keep fucking with you? Because you are clueless. And you are content to live in your blindness because as you say "It will never happen."

And yes, I wish for bad things to happen to you because maybe it will open your eyes to show you that LIFE isn't as cut and dry as you make it especially when you get to benefit off of someone else's work to see to your blindness.

As they say, pride comes before the fall

I guess these people should have moved too huh?

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

You. have. no. clue.

You have no idea what my people went through trying to maintain a property in that area that Johns Hopkins was all too happy to buy up.

You need to stay in your lane on this because you don't have any idea at all how things work in Baltimore and larger cities in general, about how Baltimore is ill prepared in handling criminal elements and moreso how they play the shell game with people.


I laugh at you hollering about "well, common citizens should band together to fight crime...that'll fix it."

Yes people SHOULD but for more than painfully obvious reasons (one being police ineptitude along with apathy and the other being FEAR of the criminal element) regular citizens don't have the luxury of expecting the police to help.

Why do I keep fucking with you? Because you are clueless. And you are content to live in your blindness because as you say "It will never happen."

And yes, I wish for bad things to happen to you because maybe it will open your eyes to show you that LIFE isn't as cut and dry as you make it especially when you get to benefit off of someone else's work to see to your blindness.

As they say, pride comes before the fall

I guess these people should have moved too huh?

Yeah, I don't think people realize that Hopkins owns half of Baltimore City and when they want to expand they just move more people out.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

You. have. no. clue.

You have no idea what my people went through trying to maintain a property in that area that Johns Hopkins was all too happy to buy up.

You need to stay in your lane on this because you don't have any idea at all how things work in Baltimore and larger cities in general, about how Baltimore is ill prepared in handling criminal elements and moreso how they play the shell game with people.

Until those people are willing to assist law enforcement in dealing with the criminal element within, they'll continue to be part of that shell game. They can deal with it or move. It's their choice.

I laugh at you hollering about "well, common citizens should band together to fight crime...that'll fix it."

I've seen it work. And you mischaracterize. I said cooperate with law enforcement to report on, provide evidence and eliminate crime. In other words, the "snitches get stitches" crowd is no longer tolerated, parents don't raise their kids to not trust or cooperate with law enforcement, cultural change. Unless that happens, "your people" deserve whatever they get.

Why do I keep fucking with you? Because you are clueless. And you are content to live in your blindness because as you say "It will never happen."

And yes, I wish for bad things to happen to you because maybe it will open your eyes to show you that LIFE isn't as cut and dry as you make it especially when you get to benefit off of someone else's work to see to your blindness.

As they say, pride comes before the fall

Ah, 'cuz I don't come from the mean streets of an east coast city, I'm incapable of forming an opinion? Or at least forming an opinion which differs from yours, which is the only correct take on the subject?

Life IS as cut and dry as that. Folks reap what they sow, and if they sow crime and blight, or at least they do nothing and watch the world around them go to hell, then that's what they get to reap. That's justice.

I guess these people should have moved too huh?

No, that proves how pathetic and cowardly the people of that neighborhood are. Only ONE family stood up to the drug dealers? Please. It's going to take a hell of a lot more than that -- especially if the police are as inept as you say. Hell, why would anyone want to even live there near neighbors who just don't give two shits about drug dealers conducting business openly? If that's acceptable, I think I can understand why a company would want to move everyone out in order to redevelop and why the city would do everything in its power to make that happen.

I'm a member of my HOA, I attend quarterly meetings, we have a neighborhood watch, we've taken measures to make it inconvenient for the nearby Section 8ers to access our neighborhood by building high fences around ourselves, we don't allow broken down cars, overgrown lawns, loud noise, or any of that. It's not tolerated.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Until those people are willing to assist law enforcement in dealing with the criminal element within, they'll continue to be part of that shell game. They can deal with it or move. It's their choice.



I've seen it work. And you mischaracterize. I said cooperate with law enforcement to report on, provide evidence and eliminate crime. In other words, the "snitches get stitches" crowd is no longer tolerated, parents don't raise their kids to not trust or cooperate with law enforcement, cultural change. Unless that happens, "your people" deserve whatever they get.



Ah, 'cuz I don't come from the mean streets of an east coast city, I'm incapable of forming an opinion? Or at least forming an opinion which differs from yours, which is the only correct take on the subject?

Life IS as cut and dry as that. Folks reap what they sow, and if they sow crime and blight, or at least they do nothing and watch the world around them go to hell, then that's what they get to reap. That's justice.



No, that proves how pathetic and cowardly the people of that neighborhood are. Only ONE family stood up to the drug dealers? Please. It's going to take a hell of a lot more than that -- especially if the police are as inept as you say. Hell, why would anyone want to even live there near neighbors who just don't give two shits about drug dealers conducting business openly? If that's acceptable, I think I can understand why a company would want to move everyone out in order to redevelop and why the city would do everything in its power to make that happen.

I'm a member of my HOA, I attend quarterly meetings, we have a neighborhood watch, we've taken measures to make it inconvenient for the nearby Section 8ers to access our neighborhood by building high fences around ourselves, we don't allow broken down cars, overgrown lawns, loud noise, or any of that. It's not tolerated.

Wow...so you have all the answers huh?

Your opinions are correct hmmm?

Why don't you try moving out of that comfort zone of yours and see if those answers are so cut and dry as it seems somewhere else and I guarantee you they are not.

I am laughing at the fact also that you 'jailed' yourself in to keep out "Section 8ers"....I wonder if that's the only problem people you are worried about. Funnier still is that mine isn't and we have no issue with "Section 8ers" or anyone else in our neighborhood.

Get back to me in about 5 years and let me know how that's working out for you, 'smart guy'.

[RU OX Alum]

I don't think the problem is with subsidized housing entirely. There are places where they will have like one project and then the rest of it is a regular neighborhood. When they put them right on top of each other is when it's almost destined to become a ghetto.

Also, saying that "we should focus on ending blight altogether" or anything of the like is an utopian appeal at best. Should blight be eliminated? Yes. Should re-devolopment an re-urbanization take a back seat to that? No. Not at all, in my opinion.

[DrPhil]

This is the most redundant thread in a while.

We know both sides of the debate but, all jokes aside, such debates are so typical and common that I don't understand DaemonSeid's frustration and cyber-emotion. LOL

[christiangirl]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

...here it comes...just watch...it's pulling in.

I heard the whistle blowing back on page 2. That was my cue to stop reading and look at the length of posts instead. When they hit novel proportions, this sucker derailed.

[RU OX Alum]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This is the most redundant thread in a while.

We know both sides of the debate but, all jokes aside, such debates are so typical and common that I don't understand DaemonSeid's frustration and cyber-emotion. LOL

Yeah it's pretty much every other thread we have about anything. I tried to learn something though. I guess I did.

I don't think utopia will ever be achieved, but I think we should all want to make our cities as best as they can be. I think people today lake civic identity. Meaning, I don't think people care at all where they live, that places and neighborhoods have become interchangeable.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

Yeah it's pretty much every other thread we have about anything. I tried to learn something though. I guess I did.

I don't think utopia will ever be achieved, but I think we should all want to make our cities as best as they can be. I think people today lake civic identity. Meaning, I don't think people care at all where they live, that places and neighborhoods have become interchangeable.

But here is the question...how many times can you keep changing between living in the suburbs vs living in the city and at what cost? It's not so cut and dry as it seems. What is it that you are willing to give up and get in return? Convenience, a nice environment, crime free areas, good school systems?

People do care where they live. Think about when you chose to move wherever you are now and where you plan to move in the future. What factors do you take into account? Better yet, if you plan on becoming a homeowner, how long do you plan on staying there? I just had this conversation with someone yesterday about the fact that due to this so call 'gentrification' issue, so many people are losing on both sides. You have owners who cannot afford to sell their property because although their credit is great, the area itself is a depressed area. And then you have people who are renting at the same price they would pay to own. It's a risk and a gamble in this economy and a question that has not been answered. How does gentrification benefit everyone? The answer is, it doesn't.

When areas a reshaped and transformed you have to sacrifice something for the desired effect. And as it's already stated, it's not just "Section 8ers" or the poor.

And as some of us have been around long enough to see some of these effects, the next question is, how long will it stay this way until people start to change their minds and decide to move back out of the cities because they don't want to be confined living up under other people, the cities have been run down, the cost of living in that area is is too high or crime forced them to the suburbs.

RU, cities lost their identities because it's more about dollars now than about 'community togetherness'.

Sidebar: Don't forget desegregation is also what lead to a destruction of 'community identity'. If you wanted tax dollars (as alluded to earlier in this thread) then governments had to bar practices about where people could live. Again another win/lose situation.

Disappearing are your "Chinatowns", (DC's Chinatown is a joke BTW), Little Poland, Little Italy, etc. These were communities that thrived at the early pert of the 20th century creating an identity because naturally the US wasn't as crowded then as it is now. But now with people scrambling to make every bit of space habitable, these communities with identities will lose them because it's all about the color and depth of green.

So, I am willing to bet you, in 10 to 20 years, this trend may reverse again.



The problem now, of course...is urban sprawl so it may not be too much suburbia left to live in within that time.


Something else you may want to look at regarding back and forth living

[dreamseeker]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This is the most redundant thread in a while.

We know both sides of the debate but, all jokes aside, such debates are so typical and common that I don't understand DaemonSeid's frustration and cyber-emotion. LOL

yah. once i saw Kevin enter the thread i knew someone was gonna get pissed off.