Arizona governor signs immigration bill

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by epchick

IDK about the "kick ass" part, but I was told this when I complained about the bill. "What are you complaining about, it's not like they are gonna stop you!"

I understand what the governor was trying to accomplish with this bill, but the outcome (like DrPhil said) will just be wrong.

I like how people are saying this WON'T turn into racial profiling because illegal Hispanics aren't the only "illegals"--you got people from the Asian countries, as well as European ones. Yeah, like the cops will really stop a white man and say "let me see your papers, I think you might be here illegally."

This bill is a hot topic in this area but I think people need to simmer down and see how AZ police plan to enforce it. A local radio station was saying that if you are US citizen hispanic/latino and don't have your birth certificate on you when pulled over in AZ that you'll be deported. SO NOT TRUE. I think that there are a lot of scare tactics being used to attack this bill, sort of like the death panels, health care rationing rumors that were going on last year in regards to health care reform.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

This bill is a hot topic in this area but I think people need to simmer down and see how AZ police plan to enforce it. A local radio station was saying that if you are US citizen hispanic/latino and don't have your birth certificate on you when pulled over in AZ that you'll be deported. SO NOT TRUE. I think that there are a lot of scare tactics being used to attack this bill, sort of like the death panels, health care rationing rumors that were going on last year in regards to health care reform.

Little tit for tat? The problem is, they specifically said that you don't have to be suspected of any crime to be checked.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Little tit for tat? The problem is, they specifically said that you don't have to be suspected of any crime to be checked.

Oh, being here illegally ISN'T a crime?

[Ghostwriter]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Oh, being here illegally ISN'T a crime?

Touche'. Short, succinct and to the point. Score.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Ghostwriter

Touche'. Short, succinct and to the point. Score.

Not necessarily. The problem will come with stating articulable suspicion that the person being detained has committed a crime, if all the police can say is "well, he looked like he might be from Mexico."

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Not necessarily. The problem will come with stating articulable suspicion that the person being detained has committed a crime, if all the police can say is "well, he looked like he might be from Mexico."

Yeah, I think the points about discrimination and racial/ethnic profiling went way over Ghostwriter's and PiKA2001's heads:

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I think we should sit back and see how this ends up being enforced. I don't believe that cops are going to start pulling over hispanics just to see if they are here illegally, I think they will do immigration checks in conjunction with criminal history checks when they already have a subject for DWI or assault or whatever infraction/misdemeanor.

We can't predict the future but we can look at what has happened more often than not when such laws and practices exist. If the law doesn't outline the do's and don'ts of it while acknowledging how it can be mishandled (I'm not saying laws necessarily do this), that gives the power and discretion to law enforcement--sounds familiar.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

Oh, being here illegally ISN'T a crime?

And being hispanic isn't a crime. Being a hispanic doesn't make you automatically an illegal immigrant. How can you tell an illegal immigrant from a legal US citizen or a legal immigrant without profiling?

As for Kevlar...it is one thing to be checked near a border, it is completely another to be stopped walking down the street in towns far from a border.

[PiKA2001]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

And being hispanic isn't a crime. Being a hispanic doesn't make you automatically an illegal immigrant. How can you tell an illegal immigrant from a legal US citizen or a legal immigrant without profiling?

As for Kevlar...it is one thing to be checked near a border, it is completely another to be stopped walking down the street in towns far from a border.

I never said being hispanic was a crime or that hispanic= illegal immigrant.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

I never said being hispanic was a crime or that hispanic= illegal immigrant.

But stopping someone in the middle of the street for no reason other than they look like an illegal immigrant is basically going to accuse a lot of American citizens of being criminals. At least if you check people for status when you arrest them for other crimes, you aren't harassing otherwise law-abiding citizens.

So how do you identify and illegal immigrant by sight? Do they have it tattooed on their face?

[AZTheta]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

But stopping someone in the middle of the street for no reason other than they look like an illegal immigrant is basically going to accuse a lot of American citizens of being criminals. At least if you check people for status when you arrest them for other crimes, you aren't harassing otherwise law-abiding citizens.

So how do you identify an illegal immigrant by sight? Do they have it tattooed on their face?

THIS.

Exactly. Might I add the observation that some of the worst crimes in history have been committed by legal residents or those who were in the country legally.

Applying a band-aid to an amputation is not effective. And what we have in AZ is yet another band-aid solution to a problem that's been well covered by publications as diverse as High Country News and the New Yorker.

Sigh. Like I said. This.Makes.Me.Crazy.

[Kevlar281]

Originally Posted by PiKA2001

A lot of cities have identified themselves as "sanctuary" cities where police and non immigration related Gov agencies are prohibited from asking an individual any questions about citizenship or immigration status. With this law being passed it allows local police to run immigration checks on anyone who gives probable cause.

I know. I live in a sanctuary city.

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Little tit for tat? The problem is, they specifically said that you don't have to be suspected of any crime to be checked.

This is exactly why I made my post about border patrol checkpoints. Everyone thinks that once you make it through the border crossing you're good to go but the federal government operates mobile border patrol checkpoints. I've been stopped and asked to identity my country of origin numerous times. After I provide ID I'm sent on my way. No crime was committed and I was not suspected of any crime other than illegal immigration. I don't see the difference between what the border patrol does and what the AZ police will now start doing.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevlar281

I don't see the difference between what the border patrol does and what the AZ police will now start doing.

Where does border patrol operate? Do they patrol every street and do illegal immigrant check points throughout the state?

[Kevlar281]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Where does border patrol operate?

Typically within a 100 miles of the border.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Do they patrol every street

They don't but nothing that I know of besides policy prevents them from doing so if they chose to.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Do they...do illegal immigrant check points throughout the state?

Yes

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

As for Kevlar...it is one thing to be checked near a border, it is completely another to be stopped walking down the street in towns far from a border.

I don't see how proximity to the border makes one acceptable and the other not.

/edit: to prevent double posting.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Kevlar281

They don't but nothing that I know of besides policy prevents them from doing so if they chose to.

Then that's one of the differences between the border patrol and regular police patrol.

Originally Posted by Kevlar281

Typically within a 100 miles of the border.
Yes

Then I believe the answer is "no, they don't patrol and have check points throughout the state."

Originally Posted by Kevlar281

I don't see how proximity to the border makes one acceptable and the other not.

Let's think critically about this:
Border patrol. Proximity to the border. Specific purpose.

Every city and state has different roles and jurisdictions for policing agencies for a reason.

[Kevlar281]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Then that's one of the differences between the border patrol and regular police patrol.

I'm not arguing that there is no difference between the border patrol and the AZ police. I'm arguing that one government entity is already doing what another law enforcement agency will soon be doing.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Then I believe the answer is "no, they don't patrol and have check points throughout the state."

I'll say it one more time. Yes they do.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Let's think critically about this:
Border patrol. Proximity to the border. Specific purpose.

Every city and state has different roles and jurisdictions for policing agencies for a reason.

So that makes it ok? Wow.