kappa sigma at fgcu?

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by 33girl

you are a fucking idiot.



May I reiterate: you are a fucking idiot.

Because it just had to be said again.

[FSUZeta]

"2 Scenerios:
Kappa Sigma organization the organization was asked to wait and had 2 choices: Say, "Okay, we're grownups and are willing to wait and work with FGCU until something can work." Or, "To hell with you and your request and rules. We'll colonize anyway. We realize that this will bring disharmony between our organization and the administration. But, we don't care! This is just like Patrick Henry. Give us our toga parties or give us death!"

Or,
A group of students didn't read the rules, made their group, contacted Kappa Sigma. Kappa Sigma didn't read the rules, found out too late, and is now facing an uphill battle instead of welcoming arms, because you didn't read the rules." LaneSig

from what i hear, it was a combination of the two.

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

As for you, LaneSig, I believe in complete disclosure and and factual accuracy, so here's what went down: A group of students wanted to start a fraternity and contacted us. We then sent in one of our staff members to meet with FGCU. FGCU informed us that they "weren't open for expansion" and that IFC only "invites" fraternities to come onto campus every year or so. We thought Fort Myers was in the United States of America, so we respectfully said we are coming anyway. For those who keep arguing that at this point we should have respected the university's wishes, you are missing the point.


Vote us down?? What world did you wake up in this morning??! Students get to decide what other students can and can't do???! Other groups can "vote us down" because they don't want us on campus? I've never heard of anything dumber in my entire life.

The IFC can't "vote off" the Catholic student association, the Polo club, or any other group any more than they can vote of the Kappa Sigma Fraternity. Just like those other groups, we don't have to be a part of "IFC" to be a student organization.

So, you did know about the rule, but went ahead and did it anyway.

BTW-Does Kappa Sigma allow anyone to join a chapter? No? Your members within the chapters vote who to allow and who not to allow? Why, that's discrimination! You shouldn't keep out people who want to join your chapters. That's infringing on their Constitutional right of these non-members to have the freedom to associate with your members, whether your members want them to or not. You have to allow them to join. It's their right.

[jennyj87]

Originally Posted by LaneSig

BTW-Does Kappa Sigma allow anyone to join a chapter? No? Your members within the chapters vote who to allow and who not to allow? Why, that's discrimination! You shouldn't keep out people who want to join your chapters. That's infringing on their Constitutional right of these non-members to have the freedom to associate with your members, whether your members want them to or not. You have to allow them to join. It's their right.

FTW

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

but stupid people anger me.

So you must be really pissed at yourself

Telling a group of students they can't organize and function on campus is not a rule, it's discrimination. We (the undergraduate students) have the same rights as every other students.

You have the same rights, and have to follow the same rules as everybody else.

MysticCat, it sounds like maybe slow days are normal for you, cognitively speaking. We don't need recognition from the other fraternities to operate on campus. "Recognition" is the name for the rights that come therewith, i.e., use of campus facilities. We seek "recognition" from FGCU, because they are a state actor and must provide student organizations with certain rights such as use of university facilities. We don't seek anything from IFC anymore.

Actually they don't. Freedom of association is not the same as saying that if an organization asks for something, it has to be granted. It just means that an individual can't be punished for who they associate with, or groups they join.

"Recognition" by the IFC has zero effect on whether FGCU "recognizes" us as a student organization just like it does every other student organization.

Actually, I'm sure every organization needs some kind of recognition process they have to go through. Since fraternities are by their very nature discriminatory, IFC has to approve, instead of the office of student involvement who would normally be the case.

If 10 other student groups decided to form a group of representatives and that group "voted" your group off campus, what would you say?

It's called a student government. And there is nothing to say that people can not join Kappa Sigma, or will get punished for it.

I think there is more to your mention of the Hitler Corps than I originally thought 33Girl, because you support blatantly communist principles.

You are calling all of us idiots, yet you don't know the difference between Communism and Fascism/Nazism? Newsflash, but Hitler hated the Communists .

The IFC can't "vote off" the Catholic student association, the Polo club, or any other group any more than they can vote of the Kappa Sigma Fraternity. Just like those other groups, we don't have to be a part of "IFC" to be a student organization.

No they can't, because those groups aren't GLOs. However, I'm sure they have to be recognized by somebody before the school would give support to them. The school has very limited resources. As such, they will not use those resources unless they know that the students support said group.

If you can get over my insults, MysticCat, the ones that I'm entitled to because your groups voted to keep us out of IFC, then please expand upon your following comment:

So you say you have the right to call somebody an idiot, because members of their group that they might not even know voted against you? Even if that was true, Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia is not at FGCU or even in NIC.

Why are we not similarly situated? Because FGCU invented an unconstitutional and discriminatory rule that we chose to fight? I wuold like to see you articulate a defense to that catch 22. "You can't come on campus, and if you choose to anyway, then we can discriminate against you, because we told you not to in the first place." That's not a rule, that's discrimination.

You are an idiot. That is like saying that putting people in jail because they broke the law is discrimination.

[jennyj87]

Originally Posted by Psi U MC Vito

No they can't, because those groups aren't GLOs. However, I'm sure they have to be recognized by the student government before the school would give support to them. The school has very limited resources. As such, they will not use those resources unless they know that the students support said group.

This is wicked true about the limited resources. However, SG doens't recognize the groups at FGCU, OSI does. Just an FYI

[Psi U MC Vito]

Originally Posted by jennyj87

This is wicked true about the limited resources. However, SG doens't recognize the groups at FGCU, OSI does. Just an FYI

Thank you and corrected. The way my school did it, so I ASSumed.

[CougarGrad]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Vote us down?? What world did you wake up in this morning??! Students get to decide what other students can and can't do???! Other groups can "vote us down" because they don't want us on campus?

I'm confused. If you're an advisor- which I'm not doubting that you are- how can you not know how the Greek expansion process works?

I can show up at TCU and recruit all kinds of young ladies to join the new "chapter" of Alpha Phi. We can have "recruitment," and events, and mixers, and initiations, and everything.

...and if we're not recognized as a chapter by the Panhellenic council, OR the university, we won't be recognized by our Executive Office, either.

If this chapter of Kappa Sigma isn't officially recognized at FGCU, can it be officially recognized by your HQ?

[knight_shadow]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

The point here is that we should all be on the same team, fraternities and sororities alike, in our fight for open expansion. Supporting FGCU's attempts to keep us off campus is supporting another university's attempts to keep your groups off campus elsewhere. And here is my guarantee, if a public university is ever trying to keep your group off campus (for non-disciplinary reasons, of course) if you call up Kappa Sigma (the #1 fraternity in amount of pledges nationally five years running) we will be the first ones to support you. And I promise, regardless of the ad hominem attacks by 33Girl and by myself and others, you will be treated with complete respect.

A lot of us do support open expansion. We're called the member fraternities of NIC.

And also -- why the hell would my organization (or any other GLO) need Kappa Sigma's blessing in order to expand? Really? What could KS do?

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

my unprofessional name calling and shot taking isn't helping much either. True - so why do you keep doing it?

The point here is that we should all be on the same team, fraternities and sororities alike, in our fight for open expansion. Really? Do you think with comments like this:
Lastly, before I forget, I don't expect any of the sorority members on here to really understand this argument. Your views are skewed by the fact that you have voluntarily created an unnecessary organization that you named Panhellenic, which you give the authority to provide strict oversight of your groups. Believe it or not, you could actually operate without it.

any sorority member is going to be impressed by you? Why can't we understand your argument? Are our little feminine brains too small to handle logic and legalese? Really? Here's an eye-opener for you - we can understand a valid argument! Some of us actually get college educations, and work in academic and professional fields! I teach logic to college students, and we discuss all sorts of things which are outside my/our personal experience.
NPC does an admirable job of handling expansion - it works for us. We like the system - it's not a case of whether or not we could operate without it - it's a case of not feeling the need to fix what isn't broken. Fraternities have a much higher rate of chapters closing and/or not even making it past the colony stage than sororities as a result of their more open-expansion policies.It's a price fraternities seem willing to pay - but that doesn't mean our system is "unnecessary".

Honest to goodness, for the sake of the undoubtedly good guys who are in the colony, please stop being argumentative and combative - you are not helping the cause. If you can't present your argument without being insulting maybe it's time to step away from the keyboard.

eta - IBTL

[33girl]

Dude, just call up Julian Bond, Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and they will be so on the side of their poor oppressed brothers. (Everyone stop a minute and think about normally cool and composed JB saying "WHAT is this honky talking about??")

[UofM-TKE]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

eta - IBTL

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

As for you, LaneSig, I believe in complete disclosure and and factual accuracy, so here's what went down: A group of students wanted to start a fraternity and contacted us. We then sent in one of our staff members to meet with FGCU. FGCU informed us that they "weren't open for expansion" and that IFC only "invites" fraternities to come onto campus every year or so. We thought Fort Myers was in the United States of America, so we respectfully said we are coming anyway. For those who keep arguing that at this point we should have respected the university's wishes, you are missing the point. Telling a group of students they can't organize and function on campus is not a rule, it's discrimination. Don't minimize the importance of our plight. First amendment freedoms are as equally important to fraternities as applied to any other group. We (the undergraduate students) have the same rights as every other students. Universities can't simply exclude groups from campus while recognizing other groups, and we will prevail on this point, I promise you.

KSig Advisor -

My apologies, you did post this earlier and I even quoted it in an earlier post. But, now it kind of looks like you are changing your story. In my above quote you are saying that the Administration just said "No" and didn't give you any information. But, in this earlier post you are admitting that the Administration basically said, "Not now. We are inviting groups." Probably asking groups to present and the best fit would be allowed.

So which is it? The Administration said "Not now" and you all said we're going to do it anyway? Which is what you said earlier.

Or, your new story? The Administration said "No" and nothing else. So you went ahead thinking that it would be acceptable?

[LaneSig]

Originally Posted by KSigAdvisor

Lane- I did post the facts earlier on, no worries. And while it is important to "begin with the facts," I didn't start this thread. Someone else started it, I got wind and hopped on. So, I'm wondering why all of you were blogging w/o knowing the facts first?

Anyhow, there is nothing inconsistent with my stories. Please don't insinuate to others that I am misleading anyone. They said "No, not now, we only invite fraternities on campus." (No and not now are one in the same because there are no guarantees any group will ever be let on, as I explain further below). The expansion process was explained, and when I looked online myself, I also found it in a short amount of time.

The (unconstitutional) "systematic" expansion process at FGCU is as such- the IFC, whenever it feels it is ready, forms a Greek Life Expansion Committee (GLIC). The GLIC invites certain fraternities to come onto campus and give a presentation, then votes on which fraternity it would like to "allow" onto campus.

Just to be clear, this part of the process was always clear and explained to us. They said "we are not ready for expansion, so go home, you can't come here." Aka, they said "no" you can't expand. Were we to wait for an unspecified period of time (which again is arbitrary at whenever IFC feels like forming GLIC), we would have only been invited, maybe, to FGCU to "give a presentation." If we weren't selected, which with 4 or 5 other fraternities vetting for the same right was nothing short of a long shot for all involved, then we would have been told, again, "no, you can't come here, not this time, we might invite you back again to try."

So, this is why we have a problem with the process. All of the fraternities that are told "no" are being shot down by the IFC, which doesn't have any legal right to grant or deny anyone their rights. Our rights to operate on public universities don't rest in the hands of the students (IFC). Each and every student has a right to create his or her own lawful student organization and be a Registered Student Organization at FGCU, that is the law (equal protection). If you disagree, go look it up, I posted it yesterday. So, we decided to support the young men who wanted to be a part of Kappa Sigma and help them form a Colony anyway.


However, when we came anyway, some in the Office of Student Life (obviously) weren't pleased. They decided they wouldn't even recognize us as a student group, claiming that because we are a single-gender organization, we can't be recognized. Our response, logically, was that FGCU allows the other fraternities on campus to operate, why would they deny us those same rights? And hence the equal protection of the laws arguments. FGCU can't deny us the right to be a student organization simply because IFC doesn't want us around. That would be like FGCU telling the Baptist Student Association that it couldn't be a Registered Student Organization because the Methodist Student Association and the Presbyterian Student Association didn't want them around. Doesn't make sense, right? That has been illegal since Brown v. Board of Education in 1954.


Now, this is where what we are doing is important. When governmental officials get wild ideas like deciding they can adopt unconstitutional laws and therefore discriminate against Kappa Sigma and every other fraternity who has been told they couldn't colonize, it is vital to the health of democracy that we stand up for our rights. FGCU is infringing upon our rights, and we have chosen to stand up for ourselves. It isn't poor planning on our part, but challenging the system is a slow process until we finally make enough noise to effectuate change.

I honestly don't think FGCU administrators had any ill will when they adopted the private school policies, I just think they were misinformed and didn't realize telling other fraternities they couldn't colonize was unconstitutional at public (aka government and taxpayer supported) universities. And now that they helped implement those policies, the administrators feel partial and are fighting really hard to beat us down, even though those policies are clearly unconstitutional, as we have pointed out. One read through of Title 9 clearly defeats their position.

So, Lane, the argument is multifaceted and can get convoluted, and typing it out each time someone jumps in is pretty inefficient. The school withheld certain information from us after the initial meeting, but we understood their Greek "systematic expansion" policy from the beginning. It wasn't a matter of not knowing the policies, it is the fact that the school says "thanks but no thanks you can't colonize." We are fighting that policy, and despite the road being long and hard, we are close to gaining our rightful recognition from FGCU, I hope. Our young men on campus have been through a lot, and it takes great courage to forge on in the face of all the attacks to which they have been subjected. There is a lot of misinformation out there, and it is impossible to manage everything the undergraduates (and alumni) say to each other, especially when other fraternity members maliciously spread false rumors.

If you are still reading Lane, thank you. I am forced to be long winded to respond to all the attacks and to also tell the story from way back in November of 2008. Hopefully all of the personal shots at me stop, and if anyone has any relevant, insightful or otherwise helpful questions or comments, please post.

Again, was not meaning to insinuate. But, one time you said that the Greek Life Office said "no" and didn't give any explanations and another time you said that you were told "not now" and the process they had implemented (invitation to fraternities) explained. So, do you see why your story would be questioned?

Okay- here is how I see it. In November, 2008, Kappa Sigma asked to colonize. You were told "No/Not now. We want to control to colonization process. We are inviting groups to present and we will select the best one for our campus." (roughly worded)

Kappa Sigma had 2 choices:
Choice #1 - "Wow, that really sucks. We really want to be part of FGCU's growing Greek Life. Okay, we don't agree. But, when you decide to expand IFC, we want to give you a presentation that will blow your socks off. You are going to beg us to colonize. You are going to be so overwhelmed by the guys we select, you'll want them to marry your daughters. We'll keep in touch because we want to be THE ONE!"

Choice #2 - "F--- you. We're going to colonize anyway. You can't stop us. It's our right."

Since the colony then began in December, 2008, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you chose Choice #2.

So, all the arguments about laws and whether or not you have to be in the campus IFC aside, you created your own situation and problems. As I stated in an earlier post, is Kappa Sigma so desparate for colonies that they had to colonize at FGCU? What would have hurt you all by waiting? Seriously, no law talk. What would have hurt?

If you had waited, you could have created a kick-ass presentation that showed what a great National Organization with Fantastic Members you have (and no, I'm not being sarcastic. I have many Kappa Sigma friends. A person who is one of my best friends - lay down my life for- is a Kappa Sig.) If you had waited, you would have shown the Administration how, even if you didn't agree with the process, you were respectful to it. If you had picked Choice #1, you probably would have been selected. You would have been welcomed with open arms by the Administration and the FGCU Greek community. They would have worked with you to ensure your success on campus.

But, you chose Choice #2. You chose the path of most resistance. You chose to go against the wishes of the Administration and fight them instead of working with them to help yourselves. You chose to tell them that their rules don't matter to you. Is it any wonder that they are throwing roadblocks up? If you chose to go against their wishes, why should the Administration think that Kappa Sigma is going to follow any rules set for the campus? The attitude of Choice #2 is "We're going to do what we want, when we want, and we don't care what you say or want." Do you understand that that is what this situation looks like to me, if not all of us?

As for Greek Chat, if you go back and start reading from the beginning, you will see that FSUZeta asked a simple question. I responded with the facts as I knew them. From what has been said on here, I believe in my initial post that I had the facts correct. Jenny responded with some extra information, being a member of the campus we are speaking of. It was only after a new poster, someone who ISN'T EVEN A MEMBER of Kappa Sigma came on and began blasting us, telling me I got my facts wrong, and was pointed out by 33girl that I didn't.

I defended what I said and spoke against his idea of the process. You then joined and told me that I didn't have one of my facts straight, telling me to be educated, not opinionated.

That's when you created your own problems with the members of GC. Your 2nd post began with questioning whether or not we are fraternity and sorority members. Calling us children, when as I pointed out, we are mostly alumns. Yes, a member called you a name. If that is how you react to a random stranger calling you a name on a chatboard, I wonder how you are treating and speaking to the administrators and Greek Life members at FGCU who are not treating you in what you see as a fair manner.

Sorry, but Kappa Sigma created their own problems on FGCU and you created your own problems with the members of GC.

And, you have never answered one of my simple questions: If Kappa Sigma does not wish to be a member of the NIC, why are they trying to get support from NIC members and using NIC resolutions as part of their argument?

[ThetaPrincess24]

I heart you LaneSig! You would make my Sigma Chi father proud