"Negro" in the historical context.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I also hope smart people know the difference between Black people jokingly saying "Negro" (and other words with historical context); versus the historical context that lead to such words being considered offensive (not by all, but by enough for it to count within a societal context; and most of these words themselves aren't offensive--the context, usage, and tone are offensive).

The first part of this sentence seems to me to come dangerously close to the argument that it is OK for black people to say nigger, but not for white people to do so.

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Seriously, naraht? This has been said for generations and said in the mainstream for decades (a la Peggy McIntosh's white privilege appearances on Oprah where she discussed that the racial designations aren't about skin complexion--and things like whose "nude stockings" are nude).

Seriously. Unfortunately, IMO, the term "European-American" has more or less been hijacked by groups that are either Neo-nazi (or close). My kids have ancestry from at least 7 different European Nations with no single nation representing more than a quarter. (Led to some fun issues with the elementary school when they wanted something all the kids to bring something in from the family culture).

Originally Posted by DrPhil

That's how it is in EVERY society because NO ONE is born with a racial, ethnic, and or cultural identity.

Do you disagree with putting race on Birth Certificates then?

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I get that people want to pretend to be "different" and pretend that they are oblivious to, and challenging of, race and the history behind words like "Negro" in certain societies (not just AmeriKKKa). But, you have to first acknowledge the reality that we've created and also acknowledge that you're an active participant in it 99% of the time--the other 1% is devoted to trying to be "different."

Until you can show that in the year 2010 that either a majority of this country or the Policies of the federal government align with those of the KKK, I would appreciate that the term "AmeriKKKa" no longer be used.

[DaemonSeid]

Until you can show that in the year 2010 that either a majority of this country or the Policies of the federal government align against those of the Negro designation, I would appreciate that the term "Negro" no longer be used.



....just saying.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Until you can show that in the year 2010 that either a majority of this country or the Policies of the federal government align against those of the Negro designation, I would appreciate that the term "Negro" no longer be used.



....just saying.

Hey, I can appreciate that, but I think I'd rather go with "the Glenn Beck" designation.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by naraht

Hey, I can appreciate that, but I think I'd rather go with "the Glenn Beck" designation.

I don't think you got where I was going....

Dr. Phil actually said it better.

[ForeverRoses]

Originally Posted by naraht

Do you disagree with putting race on Birth Certificates then?

I am always surprised to hear of places where race IS in the birth certificates. In Indiana, I know they haven't been on birth certficates from the 1970s onward (I'm not sure of before that, since I haven't seen a certificate from prior to 1971).

Then again, Indiana also did away with the "mother's maiden name" part sometime between 1973 and 2002- now it just reads father's full name, mother's full name.

[BluPhire]

Originally Posted by ForeverRoses

I am always surprised to hear of places where race IS in the birth certificates. In Indiana, I know they haven't been on birth certficates from the 1970s onward (I'm not sure of before that, since I haven't seen a certificate from prior to 1971).

Then again, Indiana also did away with the "mother's maiden name" part sometime between 1973 and 2002- now it just reads father's full name, mother's full name.

I had to come in on this thread as well. Last I checked my race wasn't on my birth certificate either. Maybe I need to check it again.

Edit. Maybe because I have the short form. Never had a need to find the long form...if any.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by BluPhire

I had to come in on this thread as well. Last I checked my race wasn't on my birth certificate either. Maybe I need to check it again.

Edit. Maybe because I have the short form. Never had a need to find the long form...if any.

Yup. I learned that from the whole "Birther" wierdness. The short form of the Birth Certificate is what the Obama campaign put up on the website. The long form of the Birth Certificate is what the State of Hawaii considers to be private and inappropriate to release.

Note, when the Birthers got to the point where they were accusing the Republican Governor of Hawaii as being part of the Conspiracy, I started offering them tin-foil hats.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by naraht

The first part of this sentence seems to me to come dangerously close to the argument that it is OK for black people to say nigger, but not for white people to do so.

That is exactly what I'm saying.

And white people can say "honky" (since we're typing stuff out, apparently) or any other derivative all they want to without any confusion or protest on my part.

Originally Posted by naraht

Seriously. Unfortunately, IMO, the term "European-American" has more or less been hijacked by groups that are either Neo-nazi (or close). My kids have ancestry from at least 7 different European Nations with no single nation representing more than a quarter. (Led to some fun issues with the elementary school when they wanted something all the kids to bring something in from the family culture).

That's what ethnic and cultural identities are about. Whiteness as a racial identity essentially became all-inclusive generations ago.

As always, I refer you to Ignatiev's "How the Irish Became White" if you want to understand why and how.

Originally Posted by naraht

Do you disagree with putting race on Birth Certificates then?

Having race on a birth certificate does not mean you are born a particular race. It means that society has assigned a race.

Originally Posted by naraht

Until you can show that in the year 2010 that either a majority of this country or the Policies of the federal government align with those of the KKK, I would appreciate that the term "AmeriKKKa" no longer be used.

AmeriKKKa. You can type "nigger" and act confused over "negro" but I can't type "AmeriKKKa?" That's humorous.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

That's what ethnic and cultural identities are about. Whiteness as a racial identity essentially became all-inclusive generations ago.

As always, I refer you to Ignatiev's "How the Irish Became White" if you want to understand why and how.

Also as a companion piece, read "...And Ladies of the Club." It's fiction, but it definitely shows how the Irish were viewed by other white people and why they did what they did.

ARE there older black people out there who still use "Negro" just because they think any of the updated terms are too militant/reactionary? (Kind of along the same lines of women who don't call themselves feminists.)

naraht, I understand what Dr Phil is trying to say. It's the difference between referring to someone (verbally or nonverbally) as "my black friend Terri" and "my friend Terri who loves skiing and lives in South Park and oh yeah, who happens to be black."

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by 33girl

ARE there older black people out there who still use "Negro" just because they think any of the updated terms are too militant/reactionary?

None that I have met, but I can understand that if you are a product of that era why you may use it. Some people are indeed resistant to change.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by 33girl

Also as a companion piece, read "...And Ladies of the Club." It's fiction, but it definitely shows how the Irish were viewed by other white people and why they did what they did.

Thanks. I'll have to check that out.

Originally Posted by 33girl

ARE there older black people out there who still use "Negro" just because they think any of the updated terms are too militant/reactionary? (Kind of along the same lines of women who don't call themselves feminists.)

Yes, and also Black people who just think it complicates things--similar to men and women who think gender equality complicates things (such as child birth).

There are also older (and not so older) Black people who don't look white people in the eyes and call all white people "sir" and "ma'am," even if they are 20 years older than the white person.

Originally Posted by 33girl

naraht, I understand what Dr Phil is trying to say. It's the difference between referring to someone (verbally or nonverbally) as "my black friend Terri" and "my friend Terri who loves skiing and lives in South Park and oh yeah, who happens to be black."

Those of us who are accustomed to being the only Black person (or other nonwhite person) in academic, professional, and certain personal settings know how it feels to be the "token Black person." People try real hard to prove they aren't racist ("some of my bestfriends are..."/"my ex-boyfriend is....") even when YOU aren't thinking about that stuff.

White people who are "the only" experience a similar dynamic except for the fact that whites (as the population and power majority in this country) are much less likely to be "the only" unless they SEEK out nonwhite settings in this extremely (de facto) racially segregated society.

This isn't about bigotry or good people versus bad people (as naraht seems to think it is). It's about power dynamics and social interaction.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

Those of us who are accustomed to being the only Black person (or other nonwhite person) in academic, professional, and certain personal settings know how it feels to be the "token Black person." People try real hard to prove they aren't racist ("some of my bestfriends are..."/"my ex-boyfriend is....") even when YOU aren't thinking about that stuff..

Exactly...some people go so far out of the way to try to be 'non offensive' that they wind up being more offensive in the long run.

Sometimes if you are trying to be friends with someone of another race or culture, it's simply best not to 'be so obvious'.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by 33girl

naraht, I understand what Dr Phil is trying to say. It's the difference between referring to someone (verbally or nonverbally) as "my black friend Terri" and "my friend Terri who loves skiing and lives in South Park and oh yeah, who happens to be black."

33girl, I understand that. However with his deceased wife having two caregivers, of about the same age, height, and weight, refering to her race as the way to identify which one he was dating was, to me, reasonable.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by naraht

33girl, I understand that. However with his deceased wife having two caregivers, of about the same age, height, and weight, refering to her race as the way to identify which one he was dating was, to me, reasonable.

Really? you don't see the difference between saying:

My neighbor still uses 'colored', but he is 84. He is definitely *not* racist. After his second wife died about 5 years ago, he dated one of the in home care-givers for his wife for about two years. She didn't mind before referred to as colored, but she is in her 60s.

And

My neighbor still uses 'colored', but he is 84 and is a product of his environment.

[naraht]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Really? you don't see the difference between saying:

My neighbor still uses 'colored', but he is 84. He is definitely *not* racist. After his second wife died about 5 years ago, he dated one of the in home care-givers for his wife for about two years. She didn't mind before referred to as colored, but she is in her 60s.

And

My neighbor still uses 'colored', but he is 84 and is a product of his environment.

Yup. One uses an example. The difference is that I see an 84 year old white man dating an african-american woman in her 60's who used to work for him and his wife as an expression of love and lack of racism and you apparently see it as a sign that the plantation is still a model for relationships in the 21st century.