too broke to bury their dead

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

I do think you can make a distinction between feeling for individuals who are suffering and believing that certain political policies which resulted in the situation were wrong.

I agree 100%, which is why what KSigkid said was reasonable and what Kevin said was not.

Originally Posted by KSigkid

A couple of things on this:


Finally (to both of you and deepimpact2), on a personal note, I'd caution any of you about making assumptions about the people posting. Not all of us grew up with silver spoons, or even with middle-class backgrounds. I grew up in a household where money was a HUGE problem, where tough choices had to be made every day, where I did not have health insurance as a child, and where I had to work two jobs through high school and during college to help ensure that I could pay for a college education, living expenses, etc. (and so that I could help contribute to the household living expenses to supplement what my parents could scrap together). I know what it's like to live in a household where each day is a struggle.

I am very sorry that you and the other residents of Michigan are going through all of this. But, let's not play the assumptions game here.

Kevin has been very open on these boards about his family's wealth and his future in the family law firm. He has repeatedly said things like "that would never happen to me" and takes the attitude that since he is immune to financial ruin, everybody else should position themselves that way as well and implies that all people can and that those who don't just aren't doing enough.

Originally Posted by Elephant Walk

There's a reason there aren't as many jobs as there are people.

It's the fault of the unions and the government (both federal and the state level). Capitalism works, if you let it. But so few let it and continue to accept intervention such as the inherently racist minimum wage policy. The Unions set wage floors to keep people out, not include them and help them out. The Unions did this to keep out black people in apartheid South Africa.

You missed my point completely. My point was that everybody can't be bosses. There have to be some peons. In a capitalistic society, there must be different classes and looking down on the middle/lower class is closed minded and short sighted.

Originally Posted by Kevin

It used to be that the labor unions worked together with the corporations to make sure that both entities could prosper. At some point, that changed. It became a game of the unions extracting as much as humanly possible from their corporate overlords. The result was predictable and yes, deserved. Further, as to Detroit, the city itself has had a long and storied history of corrupt leadership. Who keeps electing them? Who elected Kwame Kilpatrick?

No control and no warning? Really? That's kind of what I'm talking about. To say that you couldn't see the collapse of the auto industry after years and years of bleeding and losses is just astounding to me. I don't think I'd be stretching much to say that anyone who has paid attention to Detroit knew it was not a question of "if" Detroit collapsed, but rather "when."

I agree with you about unions. I am as anti-union as they come. Nobody in my family has ever been in a union.

The residents of Detroit get to vote in the Mayoral election. The millions of people who work in Detroit do not. We have no power over who gets elected in the city of Detroit and are outraged time and time again that these clowns get re-elected. We have no power. We simply pay our income tax to the city because we have to. Incidentally, Ford is not centered in the city proper and neither is Chrysler. GM is the only auto company whose headquarters are in the city of Detroit. Just an FYI because there are a lot of misconceptions there.

And yes, no control and no warning. Yes, the auto industry has had a slow bleed and our economy has changed a lot with that slow bleed. It's been several years now that Health Care is the number one employer, not the auto industry. It's been several years now that movies and tv shows are being filmed here by the dozens because of tax breaks given to that industry to use our state resources. In fact, they're building a new movie studio in a suburb of Detroit and hiring hundreds of people. Google came to Ann Arbor and opened an office. Many jobs have been created in the Life Sciences Corridor of Tech Town, an area being developed to be a mecca of medical/biological research. The collapse of the auto industry after the banking/credit collapse happened MUCH faster than anybody could have predicted. The auto industry had been changing and downsizing, in response to changes in consumer demand and desires, but the credit freeze broke them irreparably. No, we didn't think gas would be $4.50 a gallon last summer, making people suddenly want to ditch the SUVs they loved so dearly before. And, we certainly didn't expect our housing values to go down by 50% just before GM and Chrysler would both file bankruptcy back to back like they did, putting 20% of the work force in the state out of work. It was the "Perfect Storm" of an economy completely collapsing. It's not done yet. It's not over.

We don't know yet where bottom will be, but it certainly isn't the fault of that guy who can't bury his aunt. I hope his co-workers take up a collection for him like the people who work in our cafeteria have done for two of their co-workers. I can't imagine being in such a horrible place that I had to ask people for money to take care of the remains of my loved one.

[PM_Mama00]

Originally Posted by KSigkid

A couple of things on this:

1) PM_Mama - I never said it was just unions. What I was saying is that it's a deeply personal situation for people in Detroit, because of the overwhelming presence of the automotive industry there.

2) To reiterate Belle's point, saying that the government and business leaders of Detroit failed does not equal saying that the people of Detroit deserved this. I feel terrible for the people who are out of work, and for the citizens of Detroit (and around the country) who have become victims of bad political and business decisions.

Finally (to both of you and deepimpact2), on a personal note, I'd caution any of you about making assumptions about the people posting. Not all of us grew up with silver spoons, or even with middle-class backgrounds. I grew up in a household where money was a HUGE problem, where tough choices had to be made every day, where I did not have health insurance as a child, and where I had to work two jobs through high school and during college to help ensure that I could pay for a college education, living expenses, etc. (and so that I could help contribute to the household living expenses to supplement what my parents could scrap together). I know what it's like to live in a household where each day is a struggle.

I am very sorry that you and the other residents of Michigan are going through all of this. But, let's not play the assumptions game here.

My post wasn't so much directed at you. It was at Kevin who thinks everyone is below him and scum of the earth.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by AGDee

You missed my point completely. My point was that everybody can't be bosses. There have to be some peons. In a capitalistic society, there must be different classes and looking down on the middle/lower class is closed minded and short sighted.

You do get to choose which you will be though. I know too many first generation Americans who came here without a dime to their name from places like Vietnam and Iran who worked 2-3 jobs until they could run their own businesses and are quite well off today. If those people can be bosses, so can anyone else. It just takes hard and smart work. If you refuse to do that kind of stuff, yes, you will get to be a peon, but it's your choice.

I agree with you about unions. I am as anti-union as they come. Nobody in my family has ever been in a union.

I'm not even anti-union. I think some unions do a hell of a job advocating for their members without tanking the industry. A good example of that would be the plumbers and pipe fitters union. They really do a great job and I know the companies (because I've seen their books) which have these folks working for them can still do very, very well.

The residents of Detroit get to vote in the Mayoral election. The millions of people who work in Detroit do not. We have no power over who gets elected in the city of Detroit and are outraged time and time again that these clowns get re-elected. We have no power. We simply pay our income tax to the city because we have to.

Blame your parents and their parents for this phenomenon. This is a direct result of racism, the subsequent reverse-racism and white flight. Again, this is an issue entirely of the making of the folks which, as you say, "work in Detroit."

In fact, they're building a new movie studio in a suburb of Detroit and hiring hundreds of people. Google came to Ann Arbor and opened an office. Many jobs have been created in the Life Sciences Corridor of Tech Town, an area being developed to be a mecca of medical/biological research.

To be fair, just about every major metropolitan area sports its own 'Mecca' of biomedical research. We even have such an animal in OKC. Unfortunately, it just won't do to have an economy which is based and depends entirely on private and public grants to stay afloat.

I can't imagine being in such a horrible place that I had to ask people for money to take care of the remains of my loved one.

As I said before, I don't think that's a phenomenon which only occurs in Detroit. There are plenty of places around where folks can't scrape together $600+ for a cremation (although that seems rather steep, I think it's only around $450 here).

[Imus]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I'm not even anti-union. I think some unions do a hell of a job advocating for their members without tanking the industry. A good example of that would be the plumbers and pipe fitters union. They really do a great job and I know the companies (because I've seen their books) which have these folks working for them can still do very, very well.


).

You really don't know anything about plumbers or pipe fitters.

The reason union plumbers, pipe fitters or any trade are able to survive is because it is pretty much impossible to outsource a job that has to be done locally to non union labor in China. If an owner needs plumbing done they can't send their building to China to have a Chinese plumber lay the pipe.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Imus

You really don't know anything about plumbers or pipe fitters.

The reason union plumbers, pipe fitters or any trade are able to survive is because it is pretty much impossible to outsource a job that has to be done locally to non union labor in China. If an owner needs plumbing done they can't send their building to China to have a Chinese plumber lay the pipe.

Not all plumbers are union though. And in states like Oklahoma, union membership can't be a prerequisite for employment anywhere, so the unions in most cases offer value for both the employee and the employer.