Private Pool Bans Minority Campers

[rhoyaltempest]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

I say it's because of the overwhelming emotion that anything race related receives in this country. Those kids are being interviewed by a ton of reputable and nonreputable news sources. Some of them have their faces all over the place, including those who were crying. They are going to receive different types of responses from people.

Some of those kids may remember the incident but I wager that they don't know much about this story or anything beyond the fact that they didn't get to swim that day. They may believe whatever angry adults tell them about the incident and its consequences (i.e. them being denied membership when they were never seeking membership). And, as with most kids who are around adults, they can sense the emotions that they are expected to feel and express as Blacks and Hispanics who were allegedly discriminated against by whites. This type of thing can sometimes become an "I'm angry...don't know why...but I am...because I'm supposed to be" situation.

This may be true for some children but we can sometimes underestimate children's observations of race related incidents (and other things). They are not stupid and can sense when they are not welcome, especially if they are not real small. Also in the child's interview (the one that was crying) he expressed that he and the other children heard the members saying "why are those black kids in the pool?" I'm sure he had an idea as to why they were saying that. The bottom line is that some or all of those children will remember that they weren't welcome or wanted because of the color of their skin and that is indeed a very powerful message that can in fact be traumatizing for SOME children. I experienced blatant racism for the first time when I was just 7 and it stuck with me for a long time (I can still remember it in detail today) and it did shape my perceptions of whites for a long time until I got older and matured, so no one can predict how this incident or others might affect children.

And I just wanted to point out that I was born and raised in Philly and have also lived in the surrounding suburban areas (currently living in one of those suburbs now), so when I first heard about this story I was not at all surprised. While Philly is pretty diverse with a rather large Black and minority population (like most big cities), the surrounding suburban areas are full of private country clubs, golf clubs, and sports/swim clubs and most are predominantly full of old, white, and upper middle class to wealthy members. And the farther from Philly you travel, the more you are likely to encounter some form of racism, although more subtle than blatant these days. So this story sounded normal and familiar to me...sad to say. While things have improved over the years and continue to get better and better, we have a long way to go still in parts of PA. regarding racism...and classism for that matter.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

This may be true for some children but we can sometimes underestimate children's observations of race related incidents (and other things). They are not stupid and can sense when they are not welcome, especially if they are not real small. Also in the child's interview (the one that was crying) he expressed that he and the other children heard the members saying "why are those black kids in the pool?" I'm sure he had an idea as to why they were saying that. The bottom line is that some or all of those children will remember that they weren't welcome or wanted because of the color of their skin and that is indeed a very powerful message that can in fact be traumatizing for SOME children. I experienced blatant racism for the first time when I was just 7 and it stuck with me for a long time (I can still remember it in detail today) and it did shape my perceptions of whites for a long time until I got older and matured, so no one can predict how this incident or others might affect children.

I addressed this in my other post when I stated that my first experience with racism was in elementary school. I kind of knew what I was experiencing back then and there were no adults there to prepare me for it or guide me through it. I was still a child using child logic and reasoning. And, with a bunch of kids involved with this story, I'd bet that some of them aren't too keen on what happened and will go with the flow of outrage and emotions. Those who overheard the comments and had more experience with the sense of feeling unwelcome would know. However, as with my experience, kids are still kids. That's why they need adults.

What I was mostly talking about in the post you quoted was the over the top news reports, interviews, and responses from adults that those kids will most likely be exposed to. Those kids don't need all of that.

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

This may be true for some children but we can sometimes underestimate children's observations of race related incidents (and other things). They are not stupid and can sense when they are not welcome, especially if they are not real small. Also in the child's interview (the one that was crying) he expressed that he and the other children heard the members saying "why are those black kids in the pool?" I'm sure he had an idea as to why they were saying that. The bottom line is that some or all of those children will remember that they weren't welcome or wanted because of the color of their skin and that is indeed a very powerful message that can in fact be traumatizing for SOME children. I experienced blatant racism for the first time when I was just 7 and it stuck with me for a long time (I can still remember it in detail today) and it did shape my perceptions of whites for a long time until I got older and matured, so no one can predict how this incident or others might affect children.

And I just wanted to point out that I was born and raised in Philly and have also lived in the surrounding suburban areas (currently living in one of those suburbs now), so when I first heard about this story I was not at all surprised. While Philly is pretty diverse with a rather large Black and minority population (like most big cities), the surrounding suburban areas are full of private country clubs, golf clubs, and sports/swim clubs and most are predominantly full of old, white, and upper middle class to wealthy members. And the farther from Philly you travel, the more you are likely to encounter some form of racism, although more subtle than blatant these days. So this story sounded normal and familiar to me...sad to say. While things have improved over the years and continue to get better and better, we have a long way to go still in parts of PA. regarding racism...and classism for that matter.

That is a very good point which you can fill in almost any big name city and use as your example.

Times and modes of information delivery may have changed, but some behaviors obviously haven't.

You can look at narratives from 100 years ago and of course find the most blatant forms of racism and how they shaped people then into who they are today.

I think part of the 'shock factor' comes from the idea that we tend to think that although we are 100 years removed from those times, we would have advanced socially from those thoughts and words and be more 'enlightened' in race relations. Not so as this incident shows. Some of us are still surprised when things like this happen.

For example, refer to the Jena incident but not all that happened afterwards but what touched it off in the first place: A tree.

Heck, look what just happened at the Holocaust museum and that shows you how an 80 something year old man still perpetuated the hate that he STILL retained after all of these years. he's not removed from the blatant hate that people felt towards minorities in his younger days. Those folks that were involved as well as those watching I am sure formed opinions based on that too. All it takes is one bad apple to ruin it for the rest of the bunch.

Moving right along.

What I have found...odd..is how I have heard some commentators state how in the world that we have a Black president and this is still going on? Like the election of Obama was supposed to change anything? Really?

People will still be people and some will still state the obvious of what's on their minds and get looked at for their obtuse point of view.

But, let's all remember, it's a 'free country' and we have to be mindful what happens when we exercise our 'freedom of speech'.

[DaemonSeid]

Update: Swim Club to make arrangements to ask kids to come back to club. Some parents will refuse to send their kids back.

[Little32]

Originally Posted by rhoyaltempest

This may be true for some children but we can sometimes underestimate children's observations of race related incidents (and other things). They are not stupid and can sense when they are not welcome, especially if they are not real small. Also in the child's interview (the one that was crying) he expressed that he and the other children heard the members saying "why are those black kids in the pool?" I'm sure he had an idea as to why they were saying that. The bottom line is that some or all of those children will remember that they weren't welcome or wanted because of the color of their skin and that is indeed a very powerful message that can in fact be traumatizing for SOME children. I experienced blatant racism for the first time when I was just 7 and it stuck with me for a long time (I can still remember it in detail today) and it did shape my perceptions of whites for a long time until I got older and matured, so no one can predict how this incident or others might affect children.

Exactly. Children are much more perceptive than most folks give them credit for. For those of us who have experienced racism, we remember it with great clarity to this day, even though there were no reporters interviewing us about the incident and plastering our faces everywhere. (I, for instance, was first called the n-word in first grade. And I remember to this day how it made me feel and my response to it.) Let's not try to write off or minimize the impact of the experience of racism (whether perceived or actual) that this event will undoubtably have in some of these children's lives.

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Little32

(whether perceived or actual)

This sidenote says a lot. Perception and reality are shaped by a number of things, including age and life experience. I was upset when I had my experience in elementary school. But, I don't know how I would have felt if I had outraged adults guiding my thoughts, actions, and interpreting the incident for me. Perhaps I would've been scared and way more upset than I should've been based on the incident alone.

That added social-psychological effect is essentially what Kevin and I are talking about. The kids couldn't be shielded from the incident and how it made them feel (those of them who genuinely feel something). The rest is up to the adults around them.

[Little32]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This sidenote says a lot. Perception and reality are shaped by a number of things, including age and life experience. I was upset when I had my experience in elementary school. But, I don't know how I would have felt if I had outraged adults guiding my thoughts, actions, and interpreting the incident for me. Perhaps I would've been scared and way more upset than I should've been based on the incident alone.

That added social-psychological affect is essentially what Kevin and I are talking about. The kids couldn't be shielded from the incident and how it made them feel (those of them who genuinely feel something). The rest is up to the adults around them.

I agree that the media around this is "extra," while still maintaining that the incident itself is noteworthy for some of the reasons that we are discussing in this thread. I felt, though, that some of the tone of what I was reading was minimizing the incident itself. I would ask whether your position and that of your parents also impacted the way that you negotiated your experience and the tools that were available to you to make sense of the incident. To be very honest, not everyone is lucky enough to have those tools.

So shultzz is a troll. Yeah, I will pass on that level of cooldom. :neutral:

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Little32

To be very honest, not everyone is lucky enough to have those tools.

True and, as far as I am concerned, that supports the notion that what happens after this incident has the potential to harm those kids even greater than the actual incident. This is why the parents should put a lock on this situation as much as possible.

****
Regarding the update of the club allowing them to swim:
Would you let your kid swim at the pool now? What would that decision be based on?

[Little32]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

True and, as far as I am concerned, that supports the notion that what happens after this incident has the potential to harm those kids even greater than the actual incident. This is why the parents should put a lock on this situation as much as possible.

****
Regarding the update of the club allowing them to swim:
Would you let your kid swim at the pool now? What would that decision be based on?

To the bolded: I was talking about the parents too, unfortunately.

To your question, which is an interesting one, I probably would prefer that they not just because, as noted before, there were people at the pool that day who were, reportedly, making comments and taking actions based on race. As a parent, I would want to shield my children from that sort of bigotry

On the other hand, that might ensure that the incident would continue to be given "more weight than it deserves," to cite Morrison again, in terms of the impact that it would have on my children's overall development. So I would probably do what my mom did when I first went to her with my story, equip them with the tools to make sense of it (and my mama's tools were filled with sass ), and send them back out into the world.

What about you?

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by Little32

To the bolded: I was talking about the parents too, unfortunately.

Yes, just as I thought, you don't really disagree with Kevin and me. Just typing past each other and splitting hairs.

Originally Posted by Little32

To your question, which is an interesting one, I probably would prefer that they not just because, as noted before, there were people at the pool that day who were, reportedly, making comments and taking actions based on race. As a parent, I would want to shield my children from that sort of bigotry

On the other hand, that might ensure that the incident would continue to be given "more weight than it deserves," to cite Morrison again, in terms of the impact that it would have on my children's overall development. So I would probably do what my mom did when I first went to her with my story, equip them with the tools to make sense of it (and my mama's tools were filled with sass ), and send them back out into the world.

What about you?

I am back and forth with this.

I think I would let my kid go back on a trial basis. I would tell my child to be observant but not paranoid. Have fun and be respectful towards others. I would ask my child to report any race-based (not just kids being kids) comments or mistreatment to a camp supervisor. If I could, I would go with my kid.

Part of me would not let my kid go, however, integration often happens like this. People hesitate to be around "others" unless forced to do so. Then people get used to it and realize that these kids aren't coming to change the tone of the pool area or anything of the sort. Now, if the club notices changes to their club that are a matter of lack of hometraining or something to that effect, THEN the club can speak with the camp counselors, not about race and their scared club members, but about making sure the kids stick to the "rule of the pool."

[DaemonSeid]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

****
Regarding the update of the club allowing them to swim:
Would you let your kid swim at the pool now? What would that decision be based on?

Nope.

Like letting them swim there now after the fact makes up for it.

"Oh our bad, we hated on you and got called out on it...come on in and swim."

It's not so much to shield my child from the behaviors but sometimes, to continue to patronize such an establishment could easily set up bad things in the future. If you don't want my business, there are other places to swim, eat and go to school.

ETA: Anyone notice that Bruh Al hasn't reared his woolly head yet? Maybe he is still hanging with the Jacksons.

[Little32]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

Nope.

Like letting them swim there now after the fact makes up for it.

"Oh our bad, we hated on you and got called out on it...come on in and swim."

It's not so much to shield my child from the behaviors but sometimes, to continue to patronize such an establishment could easily set up bad things in the future. If you don't want my business, there are other places to swim, eat and go to school.

Yeah, but the choice of to patronize or not doesn't seem to be in the hands of the parents at this point. That raises a different set of issues, because if it is my money going to it then no. I agree. I am not going to spend my money in a place that has demonstrated that it does not want my business. (I am reminded of that episode of a Different World, where Whitley spends more than she should at the jewelry store because of a racist sales clerk.)

[DrPhil]

Originally Posted by DaemonSeid

ETA: Anyone notice that Bruh Al hasn't reared his woolly head yet? Maybe he is still hanging with the Jacksons.

Hanging with the Jacksons and chillin' with O'Reilly.

He's someone who I want to sit this one out. I don't dislike him, however, his presence would pump this up too much.

[shultzz]

Originally Posted by DrPhil

This sidenote says a lot. Perception and reality are shaped by a number of things, including age and life experience. I was upset when I had my experience in elementary school. But, I don't know how I would have felt if I had outraged adults guiding my thoughts, actions, and interpreting the incident for me. Perhaps I would've been scared and way more upset than I should've been based on the incident alone.

That added social-psychological affect is essentially what Kevin and I are talking about. The kids couldn't be shielded from the incident and how it made them feel (those of them who genuinely feel something). The rest is up to the adults around them.

Shield the kids??? These kids don't need shielding. They grow-up with hookers, drug dealers and murderers.

The real question is who destroyed the FREE public pools in their neighborhoods? If you have a free pool in your hood and you destroy it why should a private club give you access?

The parents of these criminals should get off their lazy asses and fix the graffitti covered free pool. Then they should get a tow truck to remove the stolen cars that sitting in the middle of the free pool and hire a plumber to replace the the copper that was stolen by the local crackheads.


Madmax (I guess I was banned)

[KSigkid]

Originally Posted by shultzz

Shield the kids??? These kids don't need shielding. They grow-up with hookers, drug dealers and murderers.

The real question is who destroyed the FREE public pools in their neighborhoods? If you have a free pool in your hood and you destroy it why should a private club give you access?

The parents of these criminals should get off their lazy asses and fix the graffitti covered free pool. Then they should get a tow truck to remove the stolen cars that sitting in the middle of the free pool and hire a plumber to replace the the copper that was stolen by the local crackheads.


Madmax (I guess I was banned)

Wow, I thought Madmax and Shultzz were the same person...I'm giving myself a pat on the back for that one.

ETA: You probably got this user name banned as well with this post.