Rush at OU

SWTXBelle · #1 11-26-2008, 10:34 PM

To all you familiar with Houston - does anyone want to argue the top 10% at North Forest is in any way comparable to the top 10% at Bellaire? I'd go so far as saying the top HALF at some schools could academically kick the butts of the top10% at some others. I feel sorry for the 11th percentile students in the highly competitive schools. I have known so many HIGHLY qualified students who couldn't get into UT or A&M.

Also, I am a big supporter of those Texas schools which are not the so-called top tier - which is weighted pretty heavily by the graduate programs (research institutions). This does not necessarily translate into a better undergraduate experience. It all comes down to the particular program - some non "top-tier" schools have BETTER undergraduate programs than UT or A&M.

UGAalum94 · #2 11-26-2008, 11:17 PM

But being well-qualified is sort of its own regard as long as you can get into a decent school someplace. So while the middle or even the bottom at some schools are certainly better prepared academically than the top kids at another, it's not the complete academic kiss of death to be in the 11th percentile at a really great school.

If college admission is some sort of PC spoils system, and it seems to be used this way, at least the 10% systems is objective and clear. When diversity is weigh more ambiguously with other factors, kids are at the complete mercy of admissions officials. In Texas, you've at least got a pretty clear picture of what your chances are based on your class rank.

SWTXBelle · #3 11-26-2008, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

But being well-qualified is sort of its own regard as long as you can get into a decent school someplace. So while the middle or even the bottom at some schools are certainly better prepared academically than the top kids at another, it's not the complete academic kiss of death to be in the 11th percentile at a really great school. But it is -if you want to go to UT or A&M. The problem is that the top 10% rule pits a student against other students at only their school, instead of against all of the other applicants from all the other schools. So the better-prepared student won't get in if he/she isn't in the top 10% at his/her school.

If college admission is some sort of PC spoils system, and it seems to be used this way,(Maybe it is - but I'd argue it shouldn't be.) at least the 10% systems is objective and clear. When diversity is weigh more ambiguously with other factors, kids are at the complete mercy of admissions officials. In Texas, you've at least got a pretty clear picture of what your chances are based on your class rank.

It's true - you'll know you are totally screwed based on your class rank, and not on something like whether or not you are the more qualified!

UGAalum94 · #4 11-26-2008, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

It's true - you'll know you are totally screwed based on your class rank, and not on something like whether or not you are the more qualified!

But diversity standards mean no one ever objectively knows who is more qualified. Your qualifications may be that you have a 4.0 and a 1600 but you're white and suburban with college educated parents. My qualification may be that I have a 3.5 and a 1300 and play the oboe and am part Navajo (not really) and will be the first in my family to go to college. Valuing diversity may mean we're not playing simply by the grades and test score rules.

I'm not sure I agree with this thinking either, but there's something to be said for a system that at the very least says, if you are in the top 10% we're going to let you go where you want to, as opposed to a system that says, like most of the top ranked highly selective private schools seem to, apply: we'll decide if you are good enough. Attempt to be perfect in every area and we'll decide whether you fit in this year's class or not.

SWTXBelle · #5 11-26-2008, 11:39 PM

But one problem that has reared its ugly head is that you are not doing the top 10% any favours if you let them go and they are NOT prepared. Then they can't cope - and end up flunking out. Their professors don't know - and don't care - from whence they graduated. As admitted freshmen, they have to be able to pull their weight. I know that some schools have had a problem with sending their top 10% off, and then they don't do well. Those students would be MUCH better served going to a community college or a smaller college where they can get up to speed and get the kind of personalized attention they cannot get at UT or A&M. It's sink or swim - and if they aren't prepared, no matter how well-intentioned their admission was, you risk sinking the very students you most want to enable to succeed.

eta - the program has been in place for some time - does anyone know of any other states that have adopted it?

UGAalum94 · #6 11-26-2008, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

But one problem that has reared its ugly head is that you are not doing the top 10% any favours if you let them go and they are NOT prepared. Then they can't cope - and end up flunking out. Their professors don't know - and don't care - from whence they graduated. As admitted freshmen, they have to be able to pull their weight. I know that some schools have had a problem with sending their top 10% off, and then they don't do well. Those students would be MUCH better served going to a community college or a smaller college where they can get up to speed and get the kind of personalized attention they cannot get at UT or A&M. It's sink or swim - and if they aren't prepared, no matter how well-intentioned their admission was, you risk sinking the very students you most want to enable to succeed.

I think this is true in any admission system.

I don't know of any other states that adopted the 10% deal, but I think most are just trying to do their own little diversity dance and weren't under the same legal pressure.

I wonder how much having the idea out there that UT and A&M are so hard to get into sort of creates the idea that if you are top 10% you HAVE to go there. Anybody know how many of the top 10% of the graduating classes at really good high schools used to choose UT or A&M?

SWTXBelle · #7 11-26-2008, 11:43 PM

Well, the idea should be to reduce the number who are not prepared - to have admissions standards that do all they can to insure that those who are admitted are indeed prepared. The top 10% system doesn't even pretend to do that.

eta - the top 10% system seems to be a variation of throw it on the wall and see what sticks. I don't think it serves the students' best interests, and I don't think it is in the best interest of the university.

breathesgelatin · #8 11-29-2008, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

But one problem that has reared its ugly head is that you are not doing the top 10% any favours if you let them go and they are NOT prepared. Then they can't cope - and end up flunking out. Their professors don't know - and don't care - from whence they graduated. As admitted freshmen, they have to be able to pull their weight. I know that some schools have had a problem with sending their top 10% off, and then they don't do well. Those students would be MUCH better served going to a community college or a smaller college where they can get up to speed and get the kind of personalized attention they cannot get at UT or A&M. It's sink or swim - and if they aren't prepared, no matter how well-intentioned their admission was, you risk sinking the very students you most want to enable to succeed.

eta - the program has been in place for some time - does anyone know of any other states that have adopted it?

Speaking as an instructor at UT, I don't really see any evidence that students admitted under the top 10% rule are struggling at UT.

SWTXBelle · #9 11-29-2008, 09:55 AM

Do you teach many freshman classes? If not, I would guess that they are gone before they reach you. How many of your students drop per semester? It may be those who feel overwhelmed simply drop before you have much interaction with them. Or all of your students come to school totally prepared - which is great.

My comment was based on observations from friends (teachers) at other high schools, several students I know, and a series of articles. I know that when we tracked students who attended the community college at which I sometimes teach then transferred we discovered that they had higher g.p.a.s than those who had gone straight to a 4 year school. I'd say we pull from a mix of schools - but the majority are not high-performing schools.

I do think that someone should do an actual review of the students from a variety of schools to see how many of those who go to UT and A&M actually graduate. We track graduation rates for athletes - if we are going to discuss the 10% it would be nice to have statistics to help inform the discussion.