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  #1  
Old 11-24-2008, 12:39 AM
AGDee AGDee is offline
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No.. my rhetorical questions at the end were not directed at you personally.

General Motors is the 9th biggest company in the world. Ford is 13th. In the world. http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu...008/full_list/ In 2007, GM ranked 5th and was profitable. They are having cash flow problems due to the banking industry mess and they want a loan from the government, with interest.

Other car companies do not face all of the same external problems. Foreign auto companies like Toyota pay much less for their health care insurance. Other countries charge huge tariffs on cars that are imported from the U.S. The U.S. does not charge these tariffs on foreign cars coming in. They also pay their employees much less. Toyota has posted losses this year and GM has increased sales overseas but their sales are down significantly in the US. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/upto...-sales-gm.html This will be the first year that GM hasn't led all other auto companies in sales and Toyota won't be beating it out by that much. I'm not sure where you get your impression that GM has always been failing.

My points about the retirees and employees had to do with the impact on the economy and the point that this is not a Detroit problem but a problem for the whole country. My point about the government not anticipating the banking crisis was in response to your comments about the auto companies not anticipating this combination of factors. It seems to me like they all should have foreseen that something was coming, but we tend to ignore things until they become a crisis (health care and social security are both good examples). We're a very reactive society rather than a proactive society.

I would never buy a car from anywhere but GM unless they no longer exist. So yes, my car will be from one of the Big 3. I will buy American cars as long as they exist. It is hard for me to understand why anybody wouldn't support companies from their own country above foreign countries, but given my upbringing, I'm probably brainwashed. I'm fiercely loyal to GM and honestly, other than the Alfa Romeo or VW Bug, I've never seen a foreign car that I liked. I plan to buy either a Pontiac Vibe or a Saturn Vue. I'm leaning toward the Saturn because the "talk around town" is that Pontiac as a brand is going to disappear and I don't want to be stuck with a car that I can't get serviced under warranty from my dealer. The Vue is around $20K and the Vibe is around $18K. My current car sells new for $13K and gets 38 mpg highway. Affordable? Far more affordable than any foreign car I've seen. The Vue is very similar to the Honda CR-V, which sells for a couple thousand more. The Vibe is the same car as the Toyota Matrix and sells for about the same. The Vibe is actually one GM/Toyota joint venture vehicles. I would prefer to wait a year to buy a car because I originally planned to buy one in a year and give my current car to my daughter. I've just hit a spot where it might cost more to repair than it is worth so I may not have a choice. I was also hoping to wait until my mom's condo sold (it's been on the market for a year) so I could pay cash.

And that's where the emotion comes in. I'm scared to death about the economy. I feel helpless and hopeless. We have a condo that can't sell and a fund that's covering the carrying costs of it for now, but there will come a time when that fund is gone and we'll have to pay those costs. I don't think I can afford both that and a car payment. There are 6 houses on my street of 20 houses that are in foreclosure already. More will come if the auto companies go under. My job seems fairly secure, but do I want to live in a neighborhood of abandoned houses? What's that going to be like? Crime is shooting way up already as people get desperate. At the same time, my dad, a GM retiree is freaking out about losing his health insurance in January so he's having every surgery that he's been putting off. His entire GM stock option plan, which he invested thousands and thousands of dollars into has melted away into nothing. His wife is a real estate agent in Florida, so she's not making any money. If GM goes bankrupt, she loses her health insurance. Every Chrysler employee at their headquarters has been offered a buyout package. Every single one. Some have been encouraged strongly to take it as their layoff severance package won't be as good as what's being offered now. They are saying that Delphi won't be able to come out of bankruptcy and if they go under, then GM can't make cars anyway because they are one of their biggest parts suppliers. Visteon, one of Ford's big suppliers is laying off weekly. One friend of mine has been told that she will have a job, but that her entire department is being let go in two weeks. She's not allowed to say anything to them.

It's incredibly scary. I don't wish this spreading to the rest of the country. It's bad enough with it just being here for now.
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  #2  
Old 11-24-2008, 09:53 AM
PM_Mama00 PM_Mama00 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UGAalum94 View Post
You didn't really address the issue though. Do you think they can be profitable again? What do you think it will take? Shouldn't the companies be able to show a plan for what they will do with the money?

I don't doubt the effects will be felt all over, but are the Big Three just a jobs program for the workers and the general economy? If so, wouldn't it be better to develop a plan to give money directly to the workers for retraining at companies with a track record of profitability?

I don't want to see them go under and I'm not indifferent to Michigan's immediate problem, but what's the long term plan?

Apparently, the author of the article doesn't think the companies should have to offer one.
I didn't address the issue because I chose not to. The companies should be able to show a plan. And yes I think they will be profitable again one day. And I don't understand your job program question. What jobs are you going to retrain these employees for? I'm not quite sure a lot of you understand what's going on in Michigan. THERE ARE NO JOBS. Perhaps they could use that money to relocate, but who wants to leave their family and everything they know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KSigkid View Post
No one is disputing that they work really hard, but a lot of people work just as hard at jobs (construction, etc.) without getting anything close to those salaries. I understand you live in the area, but there are people all over the country working extremely hard during 90 and 100 hour weeks in manual labor jobs; the auto workers aren't unique in that regard. It's a terrible situation, especially when part of the problem has been poor business decisions at the top.

I think bankruptcy is going to be the best option, but it's a terribly difficult situation with no easy answer.
I definitely agree with you about other jobs where employees work just as hard. Construction workers do make great money if they are union. My dad owned a construction company for many years so I've seen the wages that they made. But sadly those jobs around here are diminishing. Either that or these companies just keep building with no one to move into the places, whether it's commercial or residential which doesn't make any sense to me.

I think it was disgusting when the one CEO said he'd work for a $1 for the rest of the year, the one guy said (if I'm remembering somewhat correctly) that he'd take a pay cut, and the other guy says "No I'm comfortable with my 9.5 million" (not word for word). Ridiculous. I think the white collar workers need to take major pay cuts to save the blue collar workers jobs. Two years ago all 3 were doing major layoffs and my friend's sister, a white collar at Ford or GM, got a 20% raise.
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  #3  
Old 11-24-2008, 12:09 PM
UGAalum94 UGAalum94 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PM_Mama00 View Post
I didn't address the issue because I chose not to. The companies should be able to show a plan. And yes I think they will be profitable again one day. And I don't understand your job program question. What jobs are you going to retrain these employees for? I'm not quite sure a lot of you understand what's going on in Michigan. THERE ARE NO JOBS. Perhaps they could use that money to relocate, but who wants to leave their family and everything they know?
I had in mind anywhere in the country. If there are no other jobs where you are, and your present job and benefits make it hard from your company to be profitable, and your company makes decisions like the one you mentioned to lay off the people who actually produce the cars and give raises to white collar workers, I think you've got to start looking at a plan B.

The best plan B may not be a federal bailout of the companies as they exist currently.

ETA: And if we think that it is the government's job to guarantee manufacturing jobs remain in the US, which is a complicated issue, and Detroit is the best place to start, then it seems like the money has to come with some serious strings attached.

Last edited by UGAalum94; 11-24-2008 at 12:12 PM.
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  #4  
Old 11-24-2008, 01:19 PM
UGAalum94 UGAalum94 is offline
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AGDee,

Sorry for being so critical of something so close to you. I hope they do pull it out. And the amount of money they are asking for is relatively small compared to the banking bailout, for whatever that's worth to congress.
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  #5  
Old 11-24-2008, 02:02 PM
RU OX Alum RU OX Alum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UGAalum94 View Post
AGDee,

Sorry for being so critical of something so close to you. I hope they do pull it out. And the amount of money they are asking for is relatively small compared to the banking bailout, for whatever that's worth to congress.
Yeah, i think that one lady said it perfectly (about how they should have thought more about how it would look, them all taking their own planes) but then every other person there said it over and over, and much less elegantly. This is all face time to help them get re-elected. I'm so much less opposed to bailing out the auto-industry, provided there is a plan for viable change, than I was to the banking one. The banks did that to themselves, and the credit crunch that has resulted is one of the key factors for the automotive situation.
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  #6  
Old 11-24-2008, 02:19 PM
BetteDavisEyes BetteDavisEyes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PM_Mama00 View Post
I think it was disgusting when the one CEO said he'd work for a $1 for the rest of the year, the one guy said (if I'm remembering somewhat correctly) that he'd take a pay cut, and the other guy says "No I'm comfortable with my 9.5 million" (not word for word). Ridiculous. I think the white collar workers need to take major pay cuts to save the blue collar workers jobs. Two years ago all 3 were doing major layoffs and my friend's sister, a white collar at Ford or GM, got a 20% raise.


I agree that it was freaking stupid for him to say what he did about his pay and to cut blue collar jobs while giving raises to white collar workers is beyond incredible.
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