Rush at OU

[UHDEEGEE]

There are exceptions to every rule. I know a young lady from my son's high school who did NOT have a 4.0 unweighted GPA and received a bid from her first choice, and from what I gather from this board & other Greek sites one of the top houses, at OU. Our suburban high school is considered one of the most competitive high schools in the Houston area where a 4.0 doesn't even make it in the top 25%. She is a beautiful young lady who was a member of the Homecoming Court and involved in many extracurricular activities, though, so I assume that made up for the lower GPA.

[gee_ess]

I agree that school reputation can influence a chapter's opinion about gpa. If the school is known to be a competitive one, actives will take that into consideration.

I am interested in hearing more on GPA minimums at OU. Is a 3.8 really considered low for chapters there? What do the more competitive chapters consider an actual grade risk?

What about ACT or SAT scores? Are those factored in? And, someone explain the weighted score criteria. Does OU not consider weighted classes - AP,etc?

Looking forward to learning more...

[Ladybugmom]

Originally Posted by UHDEEGEE

There are exceptions to every rule. I know a young lady from my son's high school who did NOT have a 4.0 unweighted GPA and received a bid from her first choice, and from what I gather from this board & other Greek sites one of the top houses, at OU. Our suburban high school is considered one of the most competitive high schools in the Houston area where a 4.0 doesn't even make it in the top 25%. She is a beautiful young lady who was a member of the Homecoming Court and involved in many extracurricular activities, though, so I assume that made up for the lower GPA.

Thanks UHDEEGEE! You are describing my daughter almost to a "T". She is very involved at her school and outside of school which should help. I just shudder to think that a 3.8 is considered a lower GPA!! We also live in a highly competitive school district where my daughter is BARELY in the top quarter with a 3.8 (she got a B in her freshmen year and another B in an AP class, thus the 3.8 GPA..)
I find it shocking that this is considered a less than great GPA!! This will be very discouraging to my daughter, as it is to me.

[Ladybugmom]

Originally Posted by gee_ess

I agree that school reputation can influence a chapter's opinion about gpa. If the school is known to be a competitive one, actives will take that into consideration.

I am interested in hearing more on GPA minimums at OU. Is a 3.8 really considered low for chapters there? What do the more competitive chapters consider an actual grade risk?

What about ACT or SAT scores? Are those factored in? And, someone explain the weighted score criteria. Does OU not consider weighted classes - AP,etc?

Looking forward to learning more...

These are great questions! I would also like to know that answers!!

[kstar]

Originally Posted by gee_ess

I agree that school reputation can influence a chapter's opinion about gpa. If the school is known to be a competitive one, actives will take that into consideration.

I am interested in hearing more on GPA minimums at OU. Is a 3.8 really considered low for chapters there? What do the more competitive chapters consider an actual grade risk?

What about ACT or SAT scores? Are those factored in? And, someone explain the weighted score criteria. Does OU not consider weighted classes - AP,etc?

Looking forward to learning more...

OU does not consider weighted GPAs, since not all schools weigh GPAs, nor do all schools that do so use the same scale or criteria.

As to what chapters consider, again, that is membership selection.

Though I can say that my pledge class was mostly 4.00 GPAs in high school. There were a few (5) that were above a 3.75 and had excellent extra-curriculars.

As to what I would consider a grade risk (personally, not my chapter) is anything below a 3.85. If you can't get a 4.0 in a normal high school, how are you going to get one in college where more is expected of you and you have more outside activities (especially when you are pledging a house.)

[UHDEEGEE]

How can you not get a 4.0 in high school? Hmmm, let me count the ways.
You attend an exemplary (and extremely competitive) high school, your senior class has 760 students with the top 10% ALL having a 4.5, over half of the top 10% are National Merit Semi-Finalists, your AP classes all use college text books, your high school peers are the highly intelligent children of rocket scientists (literally), doctors, entrepreneurs, CEO's, CFO's, etc. and your school administration KNOWS it so the curriculum is designed to be ABOVE what the state's minimum requirements are, a weighted GPA of 3.5 at your high school is still considered better than an unweighted 4.0 at just about every other high school in your city because of the rigorous curriculum.

I understand the value of a high GPA because I had that 4.0, but I see how much harder my son's school is than the one I attended 30 years ago. He does not have an unweighted 4.0, but if I dropped him in most ANY other school in the Houston area, he'd have that GPA because he takes the most advanced courses that his school offers. He opted to actually learn something in school as opposed to taking the "easy A" road.

Personally, I think this stupid Top 10% law in Texas is going to be the death knell of our higher education system. When a kid with a 3.5 GPA and a 900 SAT gets into UT over a kid with a 4.0 and an 1840 SAT simply because they are in the top 10% of their class, then I think there is a serious problem. When you don't look at the level of difficulty of classes that a student takes in high school, you cannot compare apples to apples.

I would pretty much guarantee that a student graduating with a 3.85 out of my son's high school (and those like it) is going to be quite successful at their college of choice.

[em_adpi]

Originally Posted by UHDEEGEE

Personally, I think this stupid Top 10% law in Texas is going to be the death knell of our higher education system. When a kid with a 3.5 GPA and a 900 SAT gets into UT over a kid with a 4.0 and an 1840 SAT simply because they are in the top 10% of their class, then I think there is a serious problem. When you don't look at the level of difficulty of classes that a student takes in high school, you cannot compare apples to apples.

I would pretty much guarantee that a student graduating with a 3.85 out of my son's high school (and those like it) is going to be quite successful at their college of choice.

THANK YOU.

[TriDeltaSallie]

For the sake of those out of the Texas loop, could you explain the reasoning behind the 10% rule?

Thanks!

[Ladybugmom]

Originally Posted by UHDEEGEE

How can you not get a 4.0 in high school? Hmmm, let me count the ways.
You attend an exemplary (and extremely competitive) high school, your senior class has 760 students with the top 10% ALL having a 4.5, over half of the top 10% are National Merit Semi-Finalists, your AP classes all use college text books, your high school peers are the highly intelligent children of rocket scientists (literally), doctors, entrepreneurs, CEO's, CFO's, etc. and your school administration KNOWS it so the curriculum is designed to be ABOVE what the state's minimum requirements are, a weighted GPA of 3.5 at your high school is still considered better than an unweighted 4.0 at just about every other high school in your city because of the rigorous curriculum.

I understand the value of a high GPA because I had that 4.0, but I see how much harder my son's school is than the one I attended 30 years ago. He does not have an unweighted 4.0, but if I dropped him in most ANY other school in the Houston area, he'd have that GPA because he takes the most advanced courses that his school offers. He opted to actually learn something in school as opposed to taking the "easy A" road.

Personally, I think this stupid Top 10% law in Texas is going to be the death knell of our higher education system. When a kid with a 3.5 GPA and a 900 SAT gets into UT over a kid with a 4.0 and an 1840 SAT simply because they are in the top 10% of their class, then I think there is a serious problem. When you don't look at the level of difficulty of classes that a student takes in high school, you cannot compare apples to apples.

I would pretty much guarantee that a student graduating with a 3.85 out of my son's high school (and those like it) is going to be quite successful at their college of choice.

Very, very well said!!!! You again have hit the nail on the head!! I would love to hear from others that have gone through recruitment at OU to see if they would agree that a 3.8 un-weighted GPA is just too low...

[kstar]

Originally Posted by Ladybugmom

Very, very well said!!!! You again have hit the nail on the head!! I would love to hear from others that have gone through recruitment at OU to see if they would agree that a 3.8 un-weighted GPA is just too low...

I didn't say it was too low, and if, indeed your daughter is very involved in the community, volunteering, and in extracurriculars, she probably will get a bid. I just wanted to point out that it is lower than most of the girls going through rush, so she will need the other areas to be higher, especially recs. There are usually anywhere between 700 and 1000 going through rush, and over half of them will be 4.0s.

[XOMichelle]

Not being from Texas, and having gone through the collegiate application process nearly 10 years ago, I am unfamiliar with the 10% rule. Can someone explain that to me? Does it exist in other states besides Texas? Why would it make it more difficult for your daughter to get into a state school? I can't imagine a 3.8 GPA being considered low...

Thanks

[XOMichelle]

OK, I missed UHDEEGEE's post... so I gather I get the 10% rule.

I used to work at the admissions office at my private college and I know they looked at the difficulty of the school where the kids went. They had a list, and I'm pretty sure they took kids from those HS's annually (or something to that extent). Obviously, they didn't know ALL of the HS's in the US, as my HS was not on the list. But I know they looked. Not sure if that makes the Moms out there feel better or not.

I think the admissions game is pretty nuts. I've done it 3 (now 4) times: college, Med School x 2 and now residency. Residency seems to make the most sense, as I can handle being judged on weather or not I've published... but the rest of the processes are kind of a toss-up. One of our admission deans joked with me the other day "next year we are going to use handwriting analysis instead of the regular method of picking the next class", proving that even people who are involved in the process see that it can be arbitrary.

[gee_ess]

There is a thread elsewhere on GC that discusses minimum GPA's and the fact that it is actually not always private membership selection info. They are often posted on websites and made public. (maybe someone who is better at the search function than I am can find it?)So, by asking around, you may be able to find out that information.

Also, I would like to point out there is an "absolute, we have to get special permission to pledge below this" minimum gpa and there is the general acceptable gpa that chapters will take but are not necessarily wowed by.

Without anyone else to comment from OU - Irishpipes, maybe? - who can speak to this particular recruitment, and if this 3.8 GPA carries the weight Kstar says it does, then I suggest you focus on quality recs, quality pics, fine tuned resume, network, network, network. You never mentioned if you live near an active panhellenic alum association, but I again, want to stress that.

Okay, and one more thing, search for threads on recs - asking for them, do's and don'ts,etc. I think that would be another good resource.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by TriDeltaSallie

For the sake of those out of the Texas loop, could you explain the reasoning behind the 10% rule?

Thanks!

The top 10% rule was passed in the aftermath of the Hopwood v. Texas in 1996. That court case struck down UT's affirmative action policy when 4 white plaintiffs who had been rejected from the UT law school won a court case.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hopwood_v._Texas

The Michigan court case decided by the Supreme Court now probably overrides Hopwood v. Texas. But back in 1996, both the legislature wanted to do something to preserve some kind of affirmative action. The concern was that students from weaker high schools or remote areas of Texas (well, really any of areas of Texas outside the most prestigious high schools in the urban centers of Dallas, Austin, Houston, San Antonio) would face an uphill battle getting into UT. So the top 10% rule was instituted. It states that any student who graduates in the top 10% of their HS class will automatically receive admission to any Texas state school. In practice, most of those students end up going to UT.

UT doesn't like the top 10% rule much because they A) believe they could achieve more geographical/racial/ethnic diversity in admissions without it (and especially in the aftermath of the Michigan case) and B) are now forced to "automatically" admit up to 80% of their freshmen class. Since they save some spots for out of state and international students, you can see that it is extremely, extremely difficult for them to keep the size of the freshmen class down and admit anyone from a Texas high school who is not in the top 10%. The school next most affected by the rule, A&M, I believe admits 40-50% of their class based on the top 10% rule, so they are not nearly as affected as UT at this point (although the numbers are climbing for all the Texas schools).

I believe there is currently a lawsuit from a Houston student challenging the top 10% rule as reverse discrimination against students from predominantly white, urban and suburban prestigious high schools. That student failed to make the top 10% at her school because she took orchestra for four years, which is not a weighted course.

That said, as an instructor at UT, I do not believe the top 10% rule really means the student body at UT is unqualified or anything of that sort. In fact, some of the students from prestigious high schools have been low performers in my classes because they get to UT and go Greek and start drinking and partying too much and go crazy, whereas the students from small or rural or "weak" high schools are there to really better themselves and move up in the world. Just my opinion.

Basically, at this point, no one likes the top 10% rule except students from smaller high schools and the legislature. It does have the advantage of being some kind of "objective" standard that based on the way high schools are distributed across the state, will guarantee some kind of racial/ethnic/geographic diversity at the school. Personally I think it would make sense to alter the rule so that you were required to be admitted to A Texas state university rather than ANY Texas state university. Don't know if that would fly though. I think it will be interesting to see how the lawsuit from the Houston student goes and if the top 10% rule is struck down.

I also feel that if the top 10% rule does get struck down or altered by the legislature, UT will start dramatically reducing the size of its freshmen classes. The university would like to have more students housed on campus and more money to spread around per student, and more money to spend on graduate students and research programs. So if the top 10% rule goes, there are still going to be struggles for students from prestigious high schools, because there will be fewer students admitted overall.

I also have to say I'm not super-sympathetic to students from prestigious high schools, as I believe that the students who just miss getting into UT can usually A) easily achieve admission to any number of other good universities inside or outside of Texas, some of them possibly even more prestigious than UT and B) can easily afford tuition at private universities (not to mention A&M and Tech - it's not like those two schools are bad schools or something, and actually those schools, particularly Tech, may benefit from the top 10% rule by having more students check them out). I do understand that for many of those students, going to UT is a family tradition or whatever. But... I dunno.

[UHDEEGEE]

Sorry, I would have responded to the questions re: the Texas Top 10% law but we left for a family outing. Breathesgelatin answered much better than I could have, though.

BG, you are correct in that my son can get into out of state universities that are ranked higher nationally than both UT & A&M and also that we have been blessed to be able to afford tuition at a private university. But, when you are a native Texan (btw, UT is NOT our family tradition) who wants to attend one of the 2 state flagship universities and are basically penalized for attending a "prestigious" high school, than there is something wrong with the system. Perhaps the mandatory auto-admits should be the top 3% instead of 10%? Or cap the percentage of freshmen admitted under the current top 10%? I simply feel that this law will hurt our state in the long run by forcing some of our best & brightest young men & women to look outside of Texas for college....and in turn accept jobs outside of Texas as well.

OU is one of the universities that my son will be applying to next year, which is why the OP's thread caught my eye; I didn't mean to highjack. Ladybugmom, I wish your daughter the best of luck at OU recruitment!