The Medical Thread

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

Yep. You're right. It depends on the animal. It's different from invertebrates all the way to fish. Actually, AKA_Monet, heart infection can infect pigs as well as other animals, but heart disease with subsequent heart failure is even more frequent in small animal medicine. All it takes is a faulty heart to cause high blood pressure, and fluid build up within the abdomen and/or the lungs. I mean, of course that depends on which side of the heart is involved. The crazy thing about heart disease in most animals, is if the latter structures become waterlogged, oxygen exchange is reduced even further. It can be just about anything. Different diseases involving the heart valves or heart muscle can lead to heart failure too.

You know that Dr. Fishbein developed the Danio renio stem cell heart cell regeneration... Pretty interesting stuff. And their hears are like 3 small-large chambers...

I forgot about the pig infections. Should know that because my husband rattles that crap off all the time... LOL.

My last psychotic professor would have to disagree with you on that, he thinks it is all vessel wall status tied up with the kidneys and the adrenals (subrenals)... The heart just is a pump... LOL... Do NOT deal with his logic anymore.

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

I read where you mentioned heartworms. Actually, by far the most common type of heart disease seen in dogs, aside from that caused by heartworms, is mital insufficiency, I think (correct me if I'm wrong) involves the heart valve separating the left atrium from the left ventricle. To my understanding, if this valve becomes diseased and fails to close properly when it's supposed to, blood is actually allowed to flow back into the left atrium when the left ventricle contracts.

Is that all breeds of dogs? Or one breed over another? Like you wouldn't see it in a mutt, but you would with particular breeds, like Great Danes, some Laboradors, and maybe one of those "yip yip" dogs... But in ALL dogs?

Also, I forgot what it's call, but all the organs are on the "wrong side"... A few dogs show that kind of gross genetic rearrangement.

lol. I'm not surprised. We get some of the most hilarious calls. We laugh and talk about some of them for months.[/QUOTE]

Most of the other stuff sounds like you learning many things and memorizing what you need to know!!! Are you ready for licensure? Good for you though!!!

I've been fighting with little popcorn mice that jump so high right into a plastic bag... And actually, I am rather depressed due to the stuff I had to do to some of them... We are talking close to 50 cages and 100 odd mice...

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

You know that Dr. Fishbein developed the Danio renio stem cell heart cell regeneration... Pretty interesting stuff. And their hears are like 3 small-large chambers...

I forgot about the pig infections. Should know that because my husband rattles that crap off all the time... LOL.

My last psychotic professor would have to disagree with you on that, he thinks it is all vessel wall status tied up with the kidneys and the adrenals (subrenals)... The heart just is a pump... LOL... Do NOT deal with his logic anymore.




Is that all breeds of dogs? Or one breed over another? Like you wouldn't see it in a mutt, but you would with particular breeds, like Great Danes, some Laboradors, and maybe one of those "yip yip" dogs... But in ALL dogs?

Also, I forgot what it's call, but all the organs are on the "wrong side"... A few dogs show that kind of gross genetic rearrangement.

lol. I'm not surprised. We get some of the most hilarious calls. We laugh and talk about some of them for months.

Most of the other stuff sounds like you learning many things and memorizing what you need to know!!! Are you ready for licensure? Good for you though!!!

I've been fighting with little popcorn mice that jump so high right into a plastic bag... And actually, I am rather depressed due to the stuff I had to do to some of them... We are talking close to 50 cages and 100 odd mice...[/quote]


at your professor.

Actually AKA_Monet, any dog whether it's an indoor or an outdoor pet, is capable of being infected. From what I've read, there are some 70 species (at least) of mosquitos that can transmit heartworm disease, so it doesn't matter which breed. A lot of times though, like I was saying earlier the severity pretty much just depends on the number of worms present, the immune response of the infected dog, the duration of the infection, and the activity level of the dog.

Yes, yes, yes. lol. I've learned SO much and I do plenty of learning and memorizing what I need to know. I've almost gone through two highlighters, so it's time for a new one. But yes, I've learned a lot.

Speaking of mice jumping. Listen to this. Earlier I posted that I bought a tarantula (I was talking about body part regeneration, but I don't think anyone was interested ) but anyway I have one and she's gotten big enough to eat mice. The problem is she can't catch some of the ones I've fed her. They jump and stick on the inside of the top of the aquarium. So I'm familiar with the jumping.

lol why are you depressed, what have you been doing to them? I don't think it can be any worse than what I've done to some of them.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

lol why are you depressed, what have you been doing to them? I don't think it can be any worse than what I've done to some of them.

It's the sheer number of them... I hit my limit. After a passive method, and so many of them, I am needing something stronger than 2 hard alcoholic beverages... Something like Vici or a percoset...

As you move up in your field, and review possibly "Lab Animal Medicine", you will find that the duty of the vet is to ensure optimal care of all "research animals". What you find is most folks are clueless as to how to plan for experiments with animal models. They basically breed several cages together, thereby generating 100's of animals that go unused. And because animal costs are high, we wind up euthanizing them...

My personally thoughts are every animal generated needs to be used in research protocols--or most of them. And because we take US Taxpayer funds to finance this research, then it behooves us to make the most of these animal models completely... Well, that is not happening at my institution. Dare I say most of them.

So 100's or 1000's of unusable animal models are resigned to a dubious fate...

Just thinking about it will cause me nightmares... This is outside my character... And if I stay on it, I will get pissed.

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

It's the sheer number of them... I hit my limit. After a passive method, and so many of them, I am needing something stronger than 2 hard alcoholic beverages... Something like Vici or a percoset...

As you move up in your field, and review possibly "Lab Animal Medicine", you will find that the duty of the vet is to ensure optimal care of all "research animals". What you find is most folks are clueless as to how to plan for experiments with animal models. They basically breed several cages together, thereby generating 100's of animals that go unused. And because animal costs are high, we wind up euthanizing them...

My personally thoughts are every animal generated needs to be used in research protocols--or most of them. And because we take US Taxpayer funds to finance this research, then it behooves us to make the most of these animal models completely... Well, that is not happening at my institution. Dare I say most of them.

So 100's or 1000's of unusable animal models are resigned to a dubious fate...

Just thinking about it will cause me nightmares... This is outside my character... And if I stay on it, I will get pissed.

AKA_Monet this is very interesting. I don't know why this hasn't been discussed before on this thread. I agree with you though. Me personally, I think there needs to be something in place to develop non animal alternatives to the use of animals in research and education. I mean just to kill animals because they're not being used for experiments is not right at all. I think fewer animals can be used to obtain the same amount data or allow more information to be obtained from a given number of animals. I think this would decrease the total number of animals that have to be used. I also think that refinement alternatives would be nice too, because it would lessen animals pain and distress. I mean, think about it. If more refinement alternatives are developed, I think it's appropriate to assume that if a procedure is painful to humans, it will also be painful to animals. Anesthetics and/or analgesics could be used to alleviate any potential pain. That's sad to just euthanize them just because they're not going to be used. I see why it makes you upset. I think this is great topic though.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

AKA_Monet this is very interesting. I don't know why this hasn't been discussed before on this thread. I agree with you though. Me personally, I think there needs to be something in place to develop non animal alternatives to the use of animals in research and education. I mean just to kill animals because they're not being used for experiments is not right at all. I think fewer animals can be used to obtain the same amount data or allow more information to be obtained from a given number of animals. I think this would decrease the total number of animals that have to be used. I also think that refinement alternatives would be nice too, because it would lessen animals pain and distress. I mean, think about it. If more refinement alternatives are developed, I think it's appropriate to assume that if a procedure is painful to humans, it will also be painful to animals. Anesthetics and/or analgesics could be used to alleviate any potential pain. That's sad to just euthanize them just because they're not going to be used. I see why it makes you upset. I think this is great topic though.

What you just stated are the OLAW rules... But folks in research, with exceptions, are clueless and to be honest just don't care...

Lately, there are stop-gaps in place: I.e. having approval to do animal experiments shown to the publication journals or the journals retract the paper... Losing laboratory space and privilege to use animals for studies if there are violations.

My lab before this one had GROSS violations. My current lab, does not have too many violations, but the personnel's apathy about "minimizing the use and care of animals" is absent... When there are no ENFORCEABLE PUNITIVE regulations in place, then that permits a lapse in appropriate care and use of laboratory animals...

But my husband told me some of his stories and he had to do large animals, which I would have a tough time doing... And I know some vets that have to do primates, now that's tough overall.

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

What you just stated are the OLAW rules... But folks in research, with exceptions, are clueless and to be honest just don't care...

Lately, there are stop-gaps in place: I.e. having approval to do animal experiments shown to the publication journals or the journals retract the paper... Losing laboratory space and privilege to use animals for studies if there are violations.

My lab before this one had GROSS violations. My current lab, does not have too many violations, but the personnel's apathy about "minimizing the use and care of animals" is absent... When there are no ENFORCEABLE PUNITIVE regulations in place, then that permits a lapse in appropriate care and use of laboratory animals...

But my husband told me some of his stories and he had to do large animals, which I would have a tough time doing... And I know some vets that have to do primates, now that's tough overall.

Kind of reminds me of OSHA rules. Companies are supposed to follow the rules or risk fines. Are all the rules followed? No. Probably just enough to keep from getting shut down. The same thing applies to OLAW. It's like you said, it just depends on how closely they're following those rules. I think it's more of just not caring. You should see how inhumane cattle are treated at some of the slaughter houses. Maybe I should be a vegetarian. Just a thought.

Though I do think opinions vary on this subject, but technically we really don't have to dissect dead animals or vivisect living ones. I know there are other alternatives, especially with the technology available today. AKA_Monet, I really don't have a problem dissecting dead animals, it's the living ones I'm not a big fan of. Even though there are other alternatives, I don't think dissecting is really necessary because there are other non animal alternatives in which students can learn about physiology and anatomy. Of course, I don't think it's the only way, but a better way. I think it's just as good as or better than either dissection or vivisection. I'm not totally against either way, I just prefer non animal alternatives. I know that many undergraduate and graduate programs, require students to cut apart or dissect specimens that have been prepared for this purpose, or to do experiments on live animals. A lot of times students don't object to it, because they're not aware of other alternatives that are available to them.

Primates? Yeah, that would be difficult for me too. I mean, look at the proteins on the surface of human and chimpanzee cells. I think it's like, out of 9 amino acid chains, there are only something like 5 differences out of a total of over 1,200 amino acid positions. I'm not exactly sure of the exact number, but I think it's somewhere around there though.

Speaking of OLAW, how do you feel about HAPS?

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

Speaking of OLAW, how do you feel about HAPS?

Funny you should mention that since it is my institution that grants the postgraduate institute courses... LOL.

As a researcher, they "generally" do not make us Molecular Geneticists take those kinds of courses unless they want us, to do so... That's the thing, I am learning this AFTER grad school which totally sucks because I feel so behind... And I could have learned surgery long time ago.