The Medical Thread

[kstar]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Okey, I just learned how to bleed 50 ul in a hematocrit tube from the saphenous vein of a live awake mouse... The trick for me was to gently grip the mouse like a "snake hold" so that they merely accept their fate and proceed to get to the saphenous.

Interesting procedure... Now to do live retro-orbital bleeding...

Wow, we always do eye or caudal veins in rodents. Unless we are doing a cardiac stick.

I don't think I'd ever be able to find the saphenous in a rodent.

[cheerfulgreek]

I decided. I'm still going to talk to my boss tomorrow, and also some of my professors at school in a couple of weeks, but I've decided to go into cardiology. It was either that, general health care, or orthopedic surgery.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

o.k. details, details please... This sounds really interesting.

Originally Posted by kstar

Wow, we always do eye or caudal veins in rodents. Unless we are doing a cardiac stick.

I don't think I'd ever be able to find the saphenous in a rodent.

The one thing that you all will learn as vets, ESPECIALLY if you go into lab animal med, is the dun dun daaaa IACUC out of OLAW. And you all get the dubious duty to write the protocols and procedures. So as we have it, we cannot do repeat eye bleeds than once per week and no more than 1/10th of the body weight of the mouse... So since I started working in a hematology lab that studies blood disorders and we have GM mice that have hemaglobinopathies, and need repeated bleedings per week, we are allowed saphenous vein. We only collect 50 ul in heparin coated hematocrit tubes.

If you can do the caudels, you can do the saphenous, they surround the "thigh" part from the hind legs and you use eye ointment to find them. Once you see them, use a 16 gauge needle to stick and once the blood pumps out, you just collect.

Apparently it is enough for the the HemoVet for the "mouse" setting.

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

I decided. I'm still going to talk to my boss tomorrow, and also some of my professors at school in a couple of weeks, but I've decided to go into cardiology. It was either that, general health care, or orthopedic surgery.

That would be a WONDERFUL selection!!! That's my area of expertise. But, I ONLY know the research end of it and not the clinical diagnosis end. It would be VERY nice to work out the imaging technology on the hearts of all animals and the genetic differences between the animals--especially the developmental or the stem regeneration of them... It is not "translatable" as one thinks it is from the research to human clinical trials...

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

That would be a WONDERFUL selection!!! That's my area of expertise. But, I ONLY know the research end of it and not the clinical diagnosis end. It would be VERY nice to work out the imaging technology on the hearts of all animals and the genetic differences between the animals--especially the developmental or the stem regeneration of them... It is not "translatable" as one thinks it is from the research to human clinical trials...

Yep. Thanks AKA_Monet. I talked to my boss yesterday morning. He was gone all day Monday for surgeries. I asked the general vet who was there though, and she thought it was a good specialty to go into. When I did talk to him, he thought it was a good choice too. When I first started there I told him that I wanted to eventually have my own practice. He said that about 10% of domestic animals have some kind of heart disease, so it would be good for me.

I didn't know you were an expert in that area. Wow! Small world huh? Well, I know who I can come to for questions when I'm stumped at 3am.

Yep. It's very different. Well, they don't have atherosclerosis and the type of heart attacks that afflict people. In animals the problem is usually a weak heart muscle, with enlargement of one or both sides of the heart. Sometimes there's inadequate heart valve action or a rhythm that's too quick or to slow. Like in humans, cholesterol is really not a factor.

At work we generally look to see if there's a bluish discoloration of the tongue and gums during or after exercise. Sometimes there may be heavy breathing, wheezing, those sort of things which are signs of heart problems.

[cheerfulgreek]

On another note, a lot of people don't want to talk to me. A lady called yesterday and she was freaking out. After her cat gave birth to kittens she freaked because her cat was eating the placenta. I tried to explain to her that it was normal and why she was eating it. She didn't want to speak to me because "I'm not a vet." She demanded that I put a vet on the phone.

Some people.

[AKA_Monet]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

When I first started there I told him that I wanted to eventually have my own practice. He said that about 10% of domestic animals have some kind of heart disease, so it would be good for me.

I didn't know you were an expert in that area. Wow! Small world huh? Well, I know who I can come to for questions when I'm stumped at 3am.

Yep. It's very different. Well, they don't have atherosclerosis and the type of heart attacks that afflict people. In animals the problem is usually a weak heart muscle, with enlargement of one or both sides of the heart. Sometimes there's inadequate heart valve action or a rhythm that's too quick or to slow. Like in humans, cholesterol is really not a factor.

At work we generally look to see if there's a bluish discoloration of the tongue and gums during or after exercise. Sometimes there may be heavy breathing, wheezing, those sort of things which are signs of heart problems.

Aside from "heart worm" that dogs and cats get, it is my understanding that several mammals (except primates) and non-mammals have 3-chambered hearts, which are cause for differing developmental patterns. I know in the mouse, the 2 ventricles are more pointy than humans and that if the apex is rounded, there is a ventricular dysfunction as seen on echo.

Horses and cattle have different kinds of hearts, even at the molecular level, like their Titan and myosin chains are much larger than a humans. However, the first tests on statins were done on mice, rats, rabbits, then pigs and humans. Pigs have the most similar hearts to primates... Dogs are the next group people study, until the animals gets heart worm. I believe pigs get some kind of heart infection, also. Humans get cocksakie virus and von Wildebrand's factor. Rarely do they get similar infections as seen in animals--but it has been known to happen. Pneumonia is another one humans get.

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

On another note, a lot of people don't want to talk to me. A lady called yesterday and she was freaking out. After her cat gave birth to kittens she freaked because her cat was eating the placenta. I tried to explain to her that it was normal and why she was eating it. She didn't want to speak to me because "I'm not a vet." She demanded that I put a vet on the phone.

Some people.

Wait till you get the schizophrenic that thinks the aliens are messing around with her cat... That's happen to a vet friend of mine... LOL...

Just remember to say you'll take a message to give to the vet and if possible they will call you back. LOL.

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by AKA_Monet

Aside from "heart worm" that dogs and cats get, it is my understanding that several mammals (except primates) and non-mammals have 3-chambered hearts, which are cause for differing developmental patterns. I know in the mouse, the 2 ventricles are more pointy than humans and that if the apex is rounded, there is a ventricular dysfunction as seen on echo.

Horses and cattle have different kinds of hearts, even at the molecular level, like their Titan and myosin chains are much larger than a humans. However, the first tests on statins were done on mice, rats, rabbits, then pigs and humans. Pigs have the most similar hearts to primates... Dogs are the next group people study, until the animals gets heart worm. I believe pigs get some kind of heart infection, also. Humans get cocksakie virus and von Wildebrand's factor. Rarely do they get similar infections as seen in animals--but it has been known to happen. Pneumonia is another one humans get.

Yep. You're right. It depends on the animal. It's different from invertebrates all the way to fish. Actually, AKA_Monet, heart infection can infect pigs as well as other animals, but heart disease with subsequent heart failure is even more frequent in small animal medicine. All it takes is a faulty heart to cause high blood pressure, and fluid build up within the abdomen and/or the lungs. I mean, of course that depends on which side of the heart is involved. The crazy thing about heart disease in most animals, is if the latter structures become waterlogged, oxygen exchange is reduced even further. It can be just about anything. Different diseases involving the heart valves or heart muscle can lead to heart failure too.

I read where you mentioned heartworms. Actually, by far the most common type of heart disease seen in dogs, aside from that caused by heartworms, is mital insufficiency, I think (correct me if I'm wrong) involves the heart valve separating the left atrium from the left ventricle. To my understanding, if this valve becomes diseased and fails to close properly when it's supposed to, blood is actually allowed to flow back into the left atrium when the left ventricle contracts.

With heartworms, it's more common in dogs than cats. Some of the medications that are used to get rid of heartworms, cause more problems than people think. I'm not sure what the % is, but of all reported deaths caused by drug reactions, most of them were from heartworm preventative medicine. I'll bet it's almost half though. I honestly think more vets should practice holistic medicine. To my understanding, some have been experimenting with a homeopathic preventive made from microfilaria infected blood. With the right funding, I think this actually may eventually provide a true alternative to drug use. Wild animals like wolves and coyotes are quite resistant to heartworms. Studies have shown they start getting very light infestations and then become immune.

Yep. People can have some of the same heart problems that animals suffer. As far as heartworms are concerned, we can get the microfilaria from infected mosquitoes, but they never make it to the heart where they mature into adult worms. There have been studies that have shown them making it to the lungs instead. Nothing serious, they only cause ring like cysts. I read somewhere that these rings have been mistaken for cancer. That would be pretty scary if we actually could get infected with mature worms though. Have you ever seen a heartworm infested heart? It's unbelievable. They look like spaghetti. Edited for greekchat. lol

lol. I'm not surprised. We get some of the most hilarious calls. We laugh and talk about some of them for months.