California's top court overturns gay marriage ban

[nate2512]

I pose a question to everyone here who seems to make choices non religiously, how do you define your morals?

This is very relevant to the subject if you'll just answer.

[shinerbock]

I don't see what the controversy is. Many people believe that God creates people and they choose to act, either according to their urges or in spite of them. I actually think this argument is pretty legitimate.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Many people believe...

Sorry for the double post.

Shiner, believe me I understand what you're saying, but the fact that it's people who believe that gives me a problem.

People are not perfect.

What a person believes does not make it so.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

Sorry for the double post.

Shiner, believe me I understand what you're saying, but the fact that it's people who believe that gives me a problem.

People are not perfect.

What a person believes does not make it so.

Of course it doesn't, so what?

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Of course it doesn't, so what?

Read your quote from 7:11 PM today. Your comment is that "people believe."

My contention is that what "people" believe isn't valid proof.

But I think you already agreed to that, didn't you?

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

My contention is that what "people" believe isn't valid proof.

But what you believe is? How do you base your beliefs? What proof do you have to believe what you believe?

I ask in a philosophical context, not as a personal attack on you.

[KSig RC]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

I don't see what the controversy is. Many people believe that God creates people and they choose to act, either according to their urges or in spite of them. I actually think this argument is pretty legitimate.

For me, this is exactly what this "argument" breaks down to - I have no problem for you to feel or believe this way, just like I'm sure you don't particularly care that I think the overwhelming majority of people never have an opportunity, not to mention desire, to play an active role in their sexual orientation.

I also don't particularly care whether you feel gay marriage violates the sanctity of the institution - in fact, if you define marriage that way, then you're totally correct in feeling that way.

The only issue I have is with explicit legislation based on these feelings or beliefs, rather than a rationalization of why gay marriage is actually a net negative for society as a whole.

That might be too literalist for the thread, but we're improperly conflating "beliefs" with the actual point, in my mind.

[DeltAlum]

I think my morals are just fine, thanks.

But I could be wrong. I'm not a god, either.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by nate2512

I pose a question to everyone here who seems to make choices non religiously, how do you define your morals?

This is very relevant to the subject if you'll just answer.

My personal morals are based on my own religious belief system. Where we differ is in whether we think that we should force others to live by our religious beliefs. Judge not lest ye be judged and all that.

Morality and legality are not synonymous. There are a lot of things that I believe to be amoral but are legal. If we are going to base our laws on religious beliefs, then whose do we follow? If we pick one religion, then we are in violation of our Constitution. If we combine all of them, well, they will conflict. Do you want us to follow Catholic law and have birth control be illegal? Do you want us to follow the original Mormon law and have polygamy be legal? Who do we follow? Yours? Because you want us to? What if we force you to live by our religious beliefs? Would that be ok with you? Some could argue that since premarital sex is immoral, we are forcing them to live immorally by not allowing them to marry. Heterosexuals have the option of not having sex outside of marriage, but few exercise that option. Most choose to sin.

I happen to think that our government should only intervene to ban things that harm or infringe on others' civil rights. They have already way overstepped their bounds on several matters.

How morally I (or anybody else) choose to live is between me and Him (or them and their Higher Power).

Your entire argument seems to be based on "Well I don't like it". Nobody asked you to like it. Nobody asked you to marry someone of your own gender. It will not affect your life in any way if homosexuals choose to commit to lifelong partners in a legal (or religious, if their religion allows it) ceremony.