California's top court overturns gay marriage ban

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Because it is occurring in nature. There are people who are gay. These people were not altered by some man made technological method to make them gay, therefore, they are naturally gay.

Not to start another tangent / flame war, but there are people who believe that people choose to be gay.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Not to start another tangent / flame war, but there are people who believe that people choose to be gay.

Well, they are misinformed and should talk to some of the gay people and find out.

[preciousjeni]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Not to start another tangent / flame war, but there are people who believe that people choose to be gay.

Originally Posted by AGDee

Well, they are misinformed and should talk to some of the gay people and find out.

Don't think that's gonna help. LOL!

[a.e.B.O.T.]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Not to start another tangent / flame war, but there are people who believe that people choose to be gay.

Did you choose to be straight? Was there a point during puberty where you made the active choice to choose men over woman?

Gay people do not choose to be gay. Several homosexuals battle with their homosexuality often leading to depression and turbulent youths, before they accept it. I am not saying they are born with it either. The nature vs. nurture argument is still out there that either people are born gay or developments in their childhood shape them to be gay. Either way, it is not an active choice by the individual. The only choice is whether a homosexual conducts homosexual activity, or merely pretend to be heterosexual, or conduct himself in a life of celibacy.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by a.e.B.O.T.

Did you choose to be straight? Was there a point during puberty where you made the active choice to choose men over woman?

For me it was an innate 'decision' - I just always liked boys.

Let me see if I can explain - the concept stems from the fact that God would not create a sinner on purpose, one from birth. The thought is that we are all born being good and righteous in the eyes of God, free from sin. During life, God gives us the chance to decide how we want to live. Whether we want to be good or bad, right or wrong. Since for some, homosexuality is a sin, then people can not be born gay. It is something they decided to do during their lives.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

For me it was an innate 'decision' - I just always liked boys.

Let me see if I can explain - the concept stems from the fact that God would not create a sinner on purpose, one from birth. The thought is that we are all born being good and righteous in the eyes of God, free from sin. During life, God gives us the chance to decide how we want to live. Whether we want to be good or bad, right or wrong. Since for some, homosexuality is a sin, then people can not be born gay. It is something they decided to do during their lives.

Unbelievable.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

Unbelievable.

Not really.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Not really.

Really.

That's one of the most convoluted arguments I've ever heard.

For instance, some religions believe in the concept of original sin, meaning, as I understand it, that everyone is born a sinner -- not saintlike. Where does that leave them in this decision making process. Are they more likely to be gay because they're already sinners? Does it make the "choice" harder? Easier?

It seems to me that the problem in arguing anything on the basis of religious beliefs is that religions themselves are inconsistant -- not only between themselves and other religions, but often within their denominations.

That is to say nothing of individual beliefs. Not everyone takes everything their religion says as gospel (to coin a phrase -- pun intended).

So, who decides whether my religion is wrong if it doesn't agree with yours?

I'm pretty well convinced that there is no decision in whether someone is gay or not. If you want to convince me I'm wrong, quoting scriptures isn't the way to do it.

As someone noted above, the Bible was not written by God, but is a mortal intrepetation. Until God himself (or herself) tells me something in person, I'll reserve the right to be skeptical on some things.

ETA that I was writing while AGDee was posting above.

[JonoBN41]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Since for some, homosexuality is a sin, then people can not be born gay.

Who are these "some", these "some" people who are playing God and deciding what's a sin and what is not, and whether people are born gay or not? It sounds blasphemous and unscientific.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by JonoBN41

Who are these "some", these "some" people who are playing God and deciding what's a sin and what is not, and whether people are born gay or not? It sounds blasphemous and unscientific.

Ever been in the 'Bible belt' deep South? These people tend to be protestants who feel they are following the Word of God, not that they are playing God. The way they see it, people are not born bad, it is just their circumstances, life choices that make them that way. Once people realize that they are living a life against the will of God then they need to repent. Once you repent, then you are no longer to commit that particular sin, whether it was stealing, beating some one up, or homosexuality.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

Ever been in the 'Bible belt' deep South? These people tend to be protestants who feel they are following the Word of God, not that they are playing God. The way they see it, people are not born bad, it is just their circumstances, life choices that make them that way. Once people realize that they are living a life against the will of God then they need to repent. Once you repent, then you are no longer to commit that particular sin, whether it was stealing, beating some one up, or homosexuality.

It's nice that they see it that way.

But "they" may or may not be right, and just because they believe they are doesn't make it so. They're not gods themselves, just simple humans like the rest of us. A choice or accident of where they live makes no difference at all in whether they see things correctly.

Consider this which always bothered me during my early upbringing in a mondo conservative, "Hell, fire and brimstone" Church of Christ In Christian Union. If God is all knowing, all loving, all forgiving -- how can He/She condem someone to eternal damnation in Hell? Why would we have to be "tested?" Especially, if we are born without sin? Why would He/She even offer the option?

I'm an ordained Elder in the Presbyterian Church and believe in God, but still have a lot of questions.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

It's nice that they see it that way.

But "they" may or may not be right, and just because they believe they are doesn't make it so. They're not gods themselves, just simple humans like the rest of us. A choice or accident of where they live makes no difference at all in whether they see things correctly.

Well, the way "they" see it, you may not be right either, thus, the imapsse on this issue.

Consider this which always bothered me during my early upbringing in a mondo conservative, "Hell, fire and brimstone" Church of Christ In Christian Union. If God is all knowing, all loving, all forgiving -- how can He/She condem someone to eternal damnation in Hell? Why would we have to be "tested?" Especially, if we are born without sin? Why would He/She even offer the option?

I'm an ordained Elder in the Presbyterian Church and believe in God, but still have a lot of questions.

Because you are to come to God willingly, knowing it was your choice to do so.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by sigmadiva

For me it was an innate 'decision' - I just always liked boys.

Let me see if I can explain - the concept stems from the fact that God would not create a sinner on purpose, one from birth. The thought is that we are all born being good and righteous in the eyes of God, free from sin. During life, God gives us the chance to decide how we want to live. Whether we want to be good or bad, right or wrong. Since for some, homosexuality is a sin, then people can not be born gay. It is something they decided to do during their lives.

Well, Catholics believe that you born with sin, inherited from Adam and Eve, which is why they baptize you when you are an infant. The only human ever born without sin was Jesus.

Do you think you could make yourself like girls instead of boys? If you always inherently liked boys then that follows that you didn't have a choice.

[sigmadiva]

Originally Posted by AGDee

Well, Catholics believe that you born with sin, inherited from Adam and Eve, which is why they baptize you when you are an infant. The only human ever born without sin was Jesus.

Protestants don't believe this. We believe, for the most part, that as a young child, it is your parents responsibility to teach you about church and Jesus Christ. After going to Sunday school, church, and vacation Bible school that around the age 10 - 13, the kid would make the decision to commit his / her life to Christ, and thus decide to get baptized.

Do you think you could make yourself like girls instead of boys? If you always inherently liked boys then that follows that you didn't have a choice.

Me personally? NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! I love the boys. I love being the only girl in a relationship. Not to get too personal, but there are some things only a boy can provide me.

[nate2512]

I pose a question to everyone here who seems to make choices non religiously, how do you define your morals?

This is very relevant to the subject if you'll just answer.