Gays in fraternites (pt. 2)

[DSTRen13]

Regarding hypocrisy: Of course Shiner is a hypocrite. I am a hypocrite, as well. All Christians are hypocrites. It's the nature of Christianity. We acknowledge our faults, and acknowledge that there are rights and wrongs (while we may all disagree on what those are). Therefore, we do things CONSTANTLY that we know are wrong, and we will still tell you that those things are wrong, and that other things are wrong as well. If we don't, then we can't try to do better.

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by DSTRen13

Regarding hypocrisy: Of course Shiner is a hypocrite. I am a hypocrite, as well. All Christians are hypocrites. It's the nature of Christianity. We acknowledge our faults, and acknowledge that there are rights and wrongs (while we may all disagree on what those are). Therefore, we do things CONSTANTLY that we know are wrong, and we will still tell you that those things are wrong, and that other things are wrong as well. If we don't, then we can't try to do better.

DST, I certainly engage in hypocritical behavior, but perhaps we're not quite as bad as you make out.

When I think of hypocrite, I think of someone condemning others, alleging they live a nearly-faultless life, while ignoring their own mass of sin. Perhaps my definition is too narrow, but I think there are a lot of us that openly acknowledge our faults, and publicly note that while we think A, B and C are wrong, we know they're not any worse than D, E and F that we engage in. Being a fallible person certainly doesn't mean you can't acknowledge other moral inadequacies.

But it doesn't matter, I'm not really worried about being labeled a hypocrite. As long as people know that when I assert that certain acts are immoral, it doesn't mean I'm proclaiming to be morally superior. I certainly fail on a regular basis to live the type of life I should, so I'm not overly worried about the semantics.

[DSTRen13]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

DST, I certainly engage in hypocritical behavior, but perhaps we're not quite as bad as you make out.

When I think of hypocrite, I think of someone condemning others, alleging they live a nearly-faultless life, while ignoring their own mass of sin. Perhaps my definition is too narrow, but I think there are a lot of us that openly acknowledge our faults, and publicly note that while we think A, B and C are wrong, we know they're not any worse than D, E and F that we engage in. Being a fallible person certainly doesn't mean you can't acknowledge other moral inadequacies.

But it doesn't matter, I'm not really worried about being labeled a hypocrite. As long as people know that when I assert that certain acts are immoral, it doesn't mean I'm proclaiming to be morally superior. I certainly fail on a regular basis to live the type of life I should, so I'm not overly worried about the semantics.

I think we basically agree The idea that you have to be perfect to have a moral problem with anything is ridiculous. And so, if that makes us all hypocrites, that's fine. All Christians, of all flavors, are hypocrites.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by DSTRen13

Regarding hypocrisy: Of course Shiner is a hypocrite. I am a hypocrite, as well. All Christians are hypocrites. It's the nature of Christianity. We acknowledge our faults, and acknowledge that there are rights and wrongs (while we may all disagree on what those are). Therefore, we do things CONSTANTLY that we know are wrong, and we will still tell you that those things are wrong, and that other things are wrong as well. If we don't, then we can't try to do better.

Hardly. That's not what hypocrisy means. It's not hypocritical to hold others and (one's self) to high standards even though we know we will all from time to time fail to meet them.

Hypocrisy, by definition, is pretending to have values or moral standards that you do not actually have. It is holding others to a standard, and giving the appearances of holding yourself to that same standard, when in fact you do not hold yourself to that standard.

As long as you are acknowledging your faults and trying to do better, than it's not hypocrisy.

[AOII Angel]

After reading the thread, I'd have to agree...hypocrisy is not the correct term. Hubris is more apt (one of the seven deadly sins, I might add!) If straight guys don't want to be friends with gay guys, I'm sure the gay guys aren't missing out on anything with that group other than condemnation and contempt. To the frat guys who go on and on about the "disgusting" behavior of gay men, don't think that God sees your sins in any better light. Drinking to excess, fornicating with women (some of whom did not agree to said activity), etc are all disgusting in his eyes. Don't fool yourself that you are any better than any gay man walking the earth.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

After reading the thread, I'd have to agree...hypocrisy is not the correct term. Hubris is more apt (one of the seven deadly sins, I might add!) If straight guys don't want to be friends with gay guys, I'm sure the gay guys aren't missing out on anything with that group other than condemnation and contempt. To the frat guys who go on and on about the "disgusting" behavior of gay men, don't think that God sees your sins in any better light. Drinking to excess, fornicating with women (some of whom did not agree to said activity), etc are all disgusting in his eyes. Don't fool yourself that you are any better than any gay man walking the earth.

Everybody that answered the guy gave honest and mature responses. Has anyone been cocky or arrogant about it either?, that's ridiculous. I've read this entire thread for the most part and haven't really seen that at all.

What "frat guys" on here have said anything about the "disgusting behavior of gay men"? Perhaps I missed that part too. Furthermore, trying to use the whole "you drink and have sex so you aren't any better" b.s. cop-out has already been run into the ground.

Also, has anybody said anything about being "better" than anyone either? I don't think so, maybe someone has.

[Tom Earp]

Originally Posted by macallan25

Everybody that answered the guy gave honest and mature responses. Has anyone been cocky or arrogant about it either?, that's ridiculous. I've read this entire thread for the most part and haven't really seen that at all.

What "frat guys" on here have said anything about the "disgusting behavior of gay men"? Perhaps I missed that part too. Furthermore, trying to use the whole "you drink and have sex so you aren't any better" b.s. cop-out has already been run into the ground.

Also, has anybody said anything about being "better" than anyone either? I don't think so, maybe someone has.

macallan25, this has to be one of the greatest posts I have seen on this thread!

You prove yourself very well!

Thank You!

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by SECdomination

For the sake of discussion, I have to disagree with several of you.

To me, the worst part about being gay isn't the whole taking it up the butt thing (which I find pretty terrible in itself- exit only!). It's the fact that I find it so immoral and gays don't. What else do they find acceptable that I believe is completely appalling?
I would struggle to overcome their general viewpoints in order to be their friend.

Sounds a lot like he finds gays to be inferior than him.

Originally Posted by macallan25

.....and I'm offended that you're such a whiny, cry baby homosexual. What gives?

This very much sounded like you are denigrating him as a homosexual.

Originally Posted by macallan25

Everybody that answered the guy gave honest and mature responses. Has anyone been cocky or arrogant about it either?, that's ridiculous. I've read this entire thread for the most part and haven't really seen that at all.

What "frat guys" on here have said anything about the "disgusting behavior of gay men"? Perhaps I missed that part too. Furthermore, trying to use the whole "you drink and have sex so you aren't any better" b.s. cop-out has already been run into the ground.

Also, has anybody said anything about being "better" than anyone either? I don't think so, maybe someone has.

I think that you may be reading these threads with rose colored glasses, Macallan. Here is a definition of Hubris from Wikipedia "In Ancient Greece, "hubris" referred to actions taken in order to shame and humiliate the victim, thereby making one-self seem superior." Many of the posts here fit this description to a T! I think the Bible saying that homosexuality is wrong has nothing to do with your real reasons for not wanting a homosexual man in your fraternity, but you use it because you feel like it's a good argument. If you look through these posts, the majority really don't want any homosexuals in their fraternities because homosexuality is "gross", "disgusting", "uncomfortable" etc. Own how you really feel and don't hide behind the Bible (especially when you [in the general, all mankind, sense] break many of the commandments and dictates daily!)

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Sounds a lot like he finds gays to be inferior than him.


This very much sounded like you are denigrating him as a homosexual.

I don't believe he said anything expressing that he is superior to homosexuals. I believe he said that he finds homosexuality grossly immoral.

As for what I said........again, if you would have actually read the thread you would have seen that I was sarcastically responding to this statement:

I am offended you're such a cock! So, would you tell me that you banged your mother last night if I was in your fraternity, or that you licked your dog's nuts?

But hey, I guess it's ok for him to call people names and say filthy things about their mothers and pets.........he's a homosexual and we should be compassionate. Isn't that right??????

[62231]

Originally Posted by AOII Angel

Sounds a lot like he finds gays to be inferior than him.

You're right. I can't stand the gay community in general, so by default, I don't give any individual gay person I meet a chance. I know that a sin is a sin, and there is no difference in God's eyes, but there sure as hell are differences in my own.

I thought it would be kinder if I was more tactful, but at least now you feel vindicated.

[AOII Angel]

Originally Posted by SECdomination

You're right. I can't stand the gay community in general, so by default, I don't give any individual gay person I meet a chance. I know that a sin is a sin, and there is no difference in God's eyes, but there sure as hell are differences in my own.

I thought it would be kinder if I was more tactful, but at least now you feel vindicated.

Thanks for your honesty.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

That's the reason I label it as hypocrisy. Most of the same fraternity guys who will use "morality" as a reason to exclude gays are not acknowledging their faults and trying to do better. Instead they've labeled their faults as manly or cool and homosexuality as disgusting and immoral. JMO.

I see your point. I was really responding to DSTRen13:

Originally Posted by DSTRen13

Regarding hypocrisy: Of course Shiner is a hypocrite. I am a hypocrite, as well. All Christians are hypocrites. It's the nature of Christianity. We acknowledge our faults, and acknowledge that there are rights and wrongs (while we may all disagree on what those are). Therefore, we do things CONSTANTLY that we know are wrong, and we will still tell you that those things are wrong, and that other things are wrong as well. If we don't, then we can't try to do better.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I see your point. I was really responding to DSTRen13:

Yep

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

As long as you are acknowledging your faults and trying to do better, than it's not hypocrisy.

That's the reason I label it as hypocrisy. Most of the same fraternity guys who will use "morality" as a reason to exclude gays are not acknowledging their faults and trying to do better. Instead they've labeled their faults as manly or cool and homosexuality as disgusting and immoral. JMO.

[DSTRen13]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Hardly. That's not what hypocrisy means. It's not hypocritical to hold others and (one's self) to high standards even though we know we will all from time to time fail to meet them.

Hypocrisy, by definition, is pretending to have values or moral standards that you do not actually have. It is holding others to a standard, and giving the appearances of holding yourself to that same standard, when in fact you do not hold yourself to that standard.

As long as you are acknowledging your faults and trying to do better, than it's not hypocrisy.

I would agree; however, SB hasn't indicated anywhere in this thread that he is "pretending to have values or moral standards that [he] does not actually have", and yet he is accused of hypocrisy. I don't think it's a fair charge. I don't agree with his values/moral standards about 90% or more of the time, but he does seem pretty consistent on them and I see no reason to believe that he doesn't truly hold those values.