Gays in fraternites (pt. 2)

[shinerbock]

Jon, I don't get what you're saying.

Because fraternities based on Christian tenets sometimes condone or ignore sinful behavior, they should openly welcome other sinful behavior? Maybe that is rational response in some universe, just not in mine.

What does rape have anything to do with it? I've certainly never been a part of any group that condones rape, or anything remotely close to rape. I hope you haven't either.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Jon, I don't get what you're saying.

Because fraternities based on Christian tenets sometimes condone or ignore sinful behavior, they should openly welcome other sinful behavior? Maybe that is rational response in some universe, just not in mine.

I think the issue is the hypocrisy. If you won't condone sinful behavior, fine, but don't only play the morality card on homosexuality. If you have a morality standard than hold to it. If you only use said standard to keep out the people you don't like then you're a hypocrite.

(Plural You)

[starang21]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I think the issue is the hypocrisy. If you won't condone sinful behavior, fine, but don't only play the morality card on homosexuality. If you have a morality standard than hold to it. If you only use said standard to keep out the people you don't like then you're a hypocrite.

(Plural You)

i guess i'm not a hypocrite because i think homosexuality is disgusting and that's the reason i wouldn't vote a gay dude in.

LOL

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by starang21

i guess i'm not a hypocrite because i think homosexuality is disgusting and that's the reason i wouldn't vote a gay dude in.

LOL

shut up

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by jon1856

I had to just about stop reading this at the very first line.
Double standards at some Fraternities???
Off the top of my head I can recall: Rape, drug use, destruction of public property,theft, riot, under age drinking, and hazing. And the line is drawn at a person being gay?
Perhaps I need to read the whole posting when I have the time too.

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Regardless of where the line is drawn at the individual level, it is wonderful that the law recognizes the difference between illegal behaviors (underage drinking, rape, etc.) and perceived deviant and immoral behaviors (homosexuality, sex before marriage, promiscuity, etc.).
That's all.

Sex before marriage and promiscuity and rape (in full definition), to me, can be connected on the same tree.
Laws just codify social actions.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I'll give you underage drinking, but surely you are not suggesting that rape, drug use, destruction of public property, theft and riot (or hazing, for that matter) happen in every chapter? (I have feeling that by "some fraternities," shinerbock meant "some chapters of some fraternities.") Because unless you are, the "some fraternities" fits.

Read RM threads and tell me.
Not every chapter, not every GLO, not every campus.
But in some combination of the above, yes.

Originally Posted by shinerbock

Jon, I don't get what you're saying.
Because fraternities based on Christian tenets sometimes condone or ignore sinful behavior, they should openly welcome other sinful behavior? Maybe that is rational response in some universe, just not in mine.

What does rape have anything to do with it? I've certainly never been a part of any group that condones rape, or anything remotely close to rape. I hope you haven't either.

I do not condone rape at all. Yet I know it happens. I live every day knowing of at least one date rape that happened in my chapter while I was there.
And I am sure that "no" was taken as a "yes" more than once.
I am sure that your Saturday and Sunday mornings have been very much like reading Penthouse Letters a few times.
And the same can be said for the other issues I bought up and a list of more.

We as groups judge each other and others all the time.
During rush, during pledging and during Brother/Sisterhood.
You want to be part of a group that, for the most part, you fit in with well.
So, as pointed out by a few others here, is in not rather hypocritical to to turn your back on a person who may share everything but sexual preference and yet embrace a person who breaks laws or social contracts?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by jon1856

Sex before marriage and promiscuity and rape (in full definition), to me, can be connected on the same tree.
Laws just codify social actions.

jon1856.....

[shinerbock]

Jon, in your scenario, it probably is hypocritical. Double standard for sure.

But we're also not in reality with this hypo, and I don't think it would matter anyway. If you find a republican gay guy who likes to hunt, fish, play golf and drink, I'd like to see it. I'm sure there is someone out there like that, but chances are they're in the small minority, and they'll likely never have the desire to rush.

That said, you still have the problems I mentioned earlier. Who does he bring to formal? Is that guy gonna bring his bf around the house? That would be very uncomfortable for everyone. Are people gonna bite their tongue when talking about how they think homosexuality is wrong or immoral? Doesn't that take away some of the purpose of a fraternity of like minded individuals?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by jon1856

Read RM threads and tell me.
Not every chapter, not every GLO, not every campus.
But in some combination of the above, yes.

Certainly it happens -- more often than anyone would like to admit, probably (as to some of your examples) -- but I think you're over-reaching stating it the way you did and for the argument you did.

[DSTRen13]

Regarding hypocrisy: Of course Shiner is a hypocrite. I am a hypocrite, as well. All Christians are hypocrites. It's the nature of Christianity. We acknowledge our faults, and acknowledge that there are rights and wrongs (while we may all disagree on what those are). Therefore, we do things CONSTANTLY that we know are wrong, and we will still tell you that those things are wrong, and that other things are wrong as well. If we don't, then we can't try to do better.

[starang21]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

shut up

i love it when you talk strong to me

[shinerbock]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

I think the issue is the hypocrisy. If you won't condone sinful behavior, fine, but don't only play the morality card on homosexuality. If you have a morality standard than hold to it. If you only use said standard to keep out the people you don't like then you're a hypocrite.

(Plural You)

I think it can be borderline hypocritical. But of course we're not talking about going out and condemning all gays to hell, and then living an immoral personal life. We're talking about not partaking in or accepting one sin just because you fall victim to another. Acknowledging that something else is a sin, as a sinner, doesn't make you a hypocrite in my mind. But, maybe everyone else's definition is different. Is it hypocritical to personally object to drugs simply because you drink?

I think many fraternities have double standards, but whether they engage in hypocrisy, I'm not sure. I don't really think it matters that much, I'm sure I'm hypocritical at times, but that is still no reason to condone something I find morally wrong.

Now, if your entire decision is based on homosexuality, the sin, then yeah you're likely taking a hypocritical stance if you ignore the faults of other people. But like I said, I think this is a non-issue. If your choices are to be hypocritical or condone a sin, does it really matter which choice you make? There is an answer, as I noted earlier, but it certainly isn't to forgo hypocrisy while embracing some other morally repugnant activity.