Sorority suspended for "Indian Party."

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

I still don't think a non-Christian using a Christmas tree is anywhere near as offensive as dressing up as an "Indian" for a lame party. Most non-Christians who put up Christmas trees are not intentionally mocking Christians.

Your argument kind of begs the question, doesn't it? I mean, you assume that the purpose of this party was to intentionally mock native Americans. I'm sure that the ladies of that chapter would just tell [or they would have before becoming the targets of the PC police] you that the party was all in good fun, that it was "cowboys and Indians" and that they had no clue anyone would be offended by this.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Your argument kind of begs the question, doesn't it? I mean, you assume that the purpose of this party was to intentionally mock native Americans. I'm sure that the ladies of that chapter would just tell [or they would have before becoming the targets of the PC police] you that the party was all in good fun, that it was "cowboys and Indians" and that they had no clue anyone would be offended by this.

Oh, come on, Kevin. These girls are from North Dakota. I think almost everyone knows that "cowboys and Indians" isn't all good fun, especially if they're from North Dakota. As t*p said - they should have known better. They have been disciplined by their nationals. End of story.

And besides, almost any group/person that does something offensive and gets called out for it is going to claim it was all in good fun and not meant to be offensive - unless they're an open racist or just an idiot.

An incident happened at my college - that never hit the media somehow - where a guy showed up to a sorority's "Famous Lovers" date party dressed as Liesl's boyfriend from The Sound of Music. He came in full-on Nazi paraphernalia. He went around doing "Heil Hitler" salutes and multiple other offensive and Anti-Semitic gestures. He was told by several Jewish members of the sorority in question to cease and desist. He did not. He was told by male guests at the party who were in fraternities and student government to cease and desist. He did not. He took tons of party pictures that were later posted online doing the "Heil Hitler" salute. He was consequently brought before W&L's Student-Faculty Hearing Board (which deals with issues of sexual assault-sexual harassment-discrimination-offensive behavior, etc). He ultimately wasn't disciplined. But what did he claim to the newspaper, the dean, and the SFHB? He "didn't realize he was doing anything offensive." Even after multiple people told him to stop and he was being offensive, he claimed he didn't know. This is just how people defend themselves! Claiming that "it's all in good fun" doesn't mean the people in question actually thought that - or that what they're doing is OK.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

Oh, come on, Kevin. These girls are from North Dakota. I think almost everyone knows that "cowboys and Indians" isn't all good fun, especially if they're from North Dakota. As t*p said - they should have known better. They have been disciplined by their nationals. End of story.

And besides, almost any group/person that does something offensive and gets called out for it is going to claim it was all in good fun and not meant to be offensive - unless they're an open racist or just an idiot.

An incident happened at my college - that never hit the media somehow - where a guy showed up to a sorority's "Famous Lovers" date party dressed as Liesl's boyfriend from The Sound of Music. He came in full-on Nazi paraphernalia. He went around doing "Heil Hitler" salutes and multiple other offensive and Anti-Semitic gestures. He was told by several Jewish members of the sorority in question to cease and desist. He did not. He was told by male guests at the party who were in fraternities and student government to cease and desist. He did not. He took tons of party pictures that were later posted online doing the "Heil Hitler" salute. He was consequently brought before W&L's Student-Faculty Hearing Board (which deals with issues of sexual assault-sexual harassment-discrimination-offensive behavior, etc). He ultimately wasn't disciplined. But what did he claim to the newspaper, the dean, and the SFHB? He "didn't realize he was doing anything offensive." Even after multiple people told him to stop and he was being offensive, he claimed he didn't know. This is just how people defend themselves! Claiming that "it's all in good fun" doesn't mean the people in question actually thought that - or that what they're doing is OK.

So you can't have a Cowboys and Indian party in any state that is/was home to large Indian populations?

And I really can't believe you are comparing a Cowboys and Indians themed party with a kid dressing up like Nazi SS.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by macallan25

So you can't have a Cowboys and Indian party in any state that is/was home to large Indian populations?

And I really can't believe you are comparing a Cowboys and Indians themed party with a kid dressing up like Nazi SS.

I think the argument would be you can't have a Cowboy and Indian party period, actually. Or at least you shouldn't do so if you don't want to get called out on it.

I wasn't really comparing the two parties/incidents, and don't want to. I was just pointing out that people who do offensive stuff are always going to use the excuse that "it was all in good fun," even if it's clear that that's untrue.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

I think the argument would be you can't have a Cowboy and Indian party period, actually. Or at least you shouldn't do so if you don't want to get called out on it.

I wasn't really comparing the two parties/incidents, and don't want to. I was just pointing out that people who do offensive stuff are always going to use the excuse that "it was all in good fun," even if it's clear that that's untrue.

Why should I get called out for having a Cowboy and Indian party? That's absolutely ridiculous.

........dressing up like a Nazi probably wasn't in all good fun. Dressing like some Cowboys and Indians that you would see in any cheesy western is completely harmless.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by macallan25

Dressing like some Cowboys and Indians that you would see in any cheesy western is completely harmless.

Well, as this incident makes clear, a lot of people don't find it harmless.

[texas*princess]

Kevin, I don't understand how the GPhiB incident is related to a cheesy western movie that you keep trying to relate this to.

Every article I can find on that doesn't ever mention anything about Cowboys.

The girls showed up in Indian "maiden" dresses, and guys showed up in makeshift loinclothes and red 'war' paint.

Oh! And the Gamma Phi house is right next door to The American Indian Student Services House.

But hey, they shouldn't have been put on TEMPORARY social probabation because "it was all in good fun".

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

Well, as this incident makes clear, a lot of people don't find it harmless.

No. They don't.....and that really shouldn't matter. Maybe the people that really want to cry and whine over a bunch of college students having a party should start filing law suits and taking on some of the bazillion places that manufactures and sells Indian and Western costumes.

The ridiculous amount of PCness that is expected of everyone in this country is ludicrous.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

Oh, come on, Kevin. These girls are from North Dakota. I think almost everyone knows that "cowboys and Indians" isn't all good fun, especially if they're from North Dakota. As t*p said - they should have known better. They have been disciplined by their nationals. End of story.

And besides, almost any group/person that does something offensive and gets called out for it is going to claim it was all in good fun and not meant to be offensive - unless they're an open racist or just an idiot.

I'm not even going to touch the comparison of the GPhiB's conduct to dressing up like a Nazi and shooting "Heil Hitlers" at people. Absurd.

I don't buy that being disciplined by their National has really anything to do with the argument as to whether they should have been punished. I think the national was in a tight spot. I can understand why they acted because to not do so might have jeopardized relations with the ND administration and the administrations of other schools.

These girls were not being openly racist. They were just doing something in good fun. No one was hurt. That should have been the "end of story."

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I'm not even going to touch the comparison of the GPhiB's conduct to dressing up like a Nazi and shooting "Heil Hitlers" at people. Absurd.

I don't buy that being disciplined by their National has really anything to do with the argument as to whether they should have been punished. I think the national was in a tight spot. I can understand why they acted because to not do so might have jeopardized relations with the ND administration and the administrations of other schools.

These girls were not being openly racist. They were just doing something in good fun. No one was hurt. That should have been the "end of story."

I wasn't comparing the two incidents or equating them, or claiming that one is just as offensive as the other. That part is an open question in my mind. I was just using an illustration of some actions that were CLEARLY offensive and that were CLEARLY known to be offensive by the perpetrator, but where the individual still claimed it "was all in good fun." I'm just saying that that's not an effective counter to accusations of offensiveness. It can "be all in good fun" and still be offensive and inappropriate. People who claim to have done things "all in good fun" are also usually lying.

Originally Posted by Kevin

It's pointing out that the point you are making is not rooted in reality whatsoever.

LOL. OK. You still don't have any response to my argument that "it's all in good fun" is not a way to get out of this situation - and that it's usually a lie.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

LOL. OK. You still don't have any response to my argument that "it's all in good fun" is not a way to get out of this situation - and that it's usually a lie.

Actually, if you actually buy the premise that anyone, at least from a logical standpoint where someone is reacting to something which was actually portrayed because that portrayal means something or does something bad, has anything to be offended over [I don't], the "it's all in good fun" line, if true, mitigates "intent to offend," which is apparently a class C felony on college campuses these days.

In this case, I'm definitely buying that this is true in this case.

TP: I really don't care what the school did. That they did what they did doesn't make it right.

I agree, social probation at the end of the semester, only a few weeks away from finals probably isn't going to affect the sorority that much. It's the principle of the thing which makes me wish they'd fight it, but really, when a punishment so light is on the table, sometimes, it's best to just take the path of least resistance.

[PeppyGPhiB]

I bet no one in this thread was a member of Indian Princesses? Boy, those little girls and their daddies sure were racist!

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by PeppyGPhiB

I bet no one in this thread was a member of Indian Princesses? Boy, those little girls and their daddies sure were racist!

No, they were ignorant by participating in something that promotes racial stereotypes.

"Red Face" does not honor us
On Indian Princesses

And on the Y program Indian Princesses

It's with mixed feelings that I hear the YMCA has chosen to end its Y-Indian Princess program. I do think it would have been better to fix what was racist about the program rather than throwing the whole thing out entirely. Youth groups are a good opportunity for constructive dialogue and teaching children about another culture, which is too often swept under the carpet in our country today. On the other hand, changing the program to be more culturally respectful might have entailed more work, expense, and argument with members than the YMCA wanted to deal with, and I certainly commend them for caring about our feelings enough to do something, even if it isn't necessarily the solution I would have chosen.

[macallan25]

Originally Posted by breathesgelatin

LOL. OK. You still don't have any response to my argument that "it's all in good fun" is not a way to get out of this situation - and that it's usually a lie.

Why? Why are you not allowed to harmlessly participate in a party meant completely for fun. It's almost like you are saying that this isn't possible, you have to be lying.....you're party was certainly meant to be highly offensive and mocking.

What's next? Should we start threatening 3 year old trick or treaters who want to dress up like Pocohantas for Halloween?