Sorority suspended for "Indian Party."

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SigKapSweetie

I disagree. Christmas has, at least in this country, transitioned from a pure religious observance into a mainly secular commercial holiday.

Gotta disagree with you. What you said here regarding the transition to a mainly secular holiday is exactly why many of us for whom it is a religious observance can be very offended at the way it has been secularized. 'Course, we Christians (at least nominal Christians) did it to ourselves.

And don't get me started on seeing the same trend happening with Easter.

I have difficulty getting riled up about this, since Christmas was moved to December in order to coincide with Winter Solstice celebrations anyway. In my understanding, December 25th wasn't originally of special importance to anyone except pagans, and then only when the Solstice happened to fall on that day.

Somewhat of an oversimplification.

Of course, Scripture doesn't say when Jesus was born, although Luke certainly suggests it was in the summer.

But the winter solstice has historically in many cultures been a solemn and special occasion, usually marking the "rebirth" of the sun and the coming of light into a dark world. That's precisely why early Christians in Rome identified it as an appropriate time to replace pagan observances with the celebration of the Incarnation -- the birth of the Son of God and the coming of the "Light of the World" into the world.

And you have to be careful in identifying December 25 specifically, remebering (1) the exact date of the solstice can vary not only from year to year but from place to place, and (2) the calendar has been through a few changes in the last 2000 years. The December 25 observance (Saturnalia in the Roman world) was always a solstice observance.

Originally Posted by Drolefille

Hey, I even looked again, checked the Catholic Encyclopedia and since before the Reformation the Church thought Carnival had gotten out of control but no mention of a specific service as there may be for the Anglicans.

Perhaps not so much a service, but confession. The English name "Shrove Tuesday" (rather than "Fat Tuesday") hearkens back and refers to the pre-Reformation English tradition of going to confession (being shriven) on the Monday and Tuesday prior to Ash Wednesday. So at least etymologically, the English name carries a religious connotation that Mardi Gras or Carnival do not.

And I know you know where the Angican Church comes from , but I note that SWTXBelle referred to her Anglican experience as "high church." I do wonder if she is using "high church" as meaning "Anglo-Catholic" -- sometimes it means Anglo-Catholic and sometimes it doesn't. But one of the particulars of the Anglo-Catholic movement was to seek to return to a pre-Reformation English Christianity/catholicism, sans the pope as Vicar of Christ (primer inter pares as Bishop of Rome, yes; pope, no) and other "Roman abuses," of course. With such a perspective, Shrove Tuesday as a day of religious observance would make sense.

Just saying.

[SWTXBelle]

Yes, Mystic - you've got it exactly right. And bonus points for knowing that Anglicans have a tradition that predates the Roman Catholic church in the UK.

And Drole - I think the thread has gone fairly far afield from the original discussion of the ND incident. My stating my problem with ANYONE'S cultural/religious holidays or observances being co-opted as an excuse to get drunk is certainly not an attempt to excuse a chapter's ill-advised actions. It is a typical GC digression - I did want to point out that many times if it's not your ox being gored you will excuse behaviors that you yourself indulge in. I realize that because I'm a Gamma Phi you might think that I am somehow seeking to justify the ND chapter's actions - but I haven't. I think the statement from HQ is perfectly succinct and to the point.
I'd like to think you "know" me well enough, Drole, to know that I wouldn't support any activity, even by my sisters, that was insulting to anyone or any group. I find it interesting that you basically have said I have no right to be upset at the degradation of Mardi Gras because I come from a small, yet ancient, religious tradition. You've essentially negated my point of view, going so far as to lecture me about ecclesiastical history. I would argue that you shouldn't have to justify your beliefs in order to have them respected.

The funny thing is that this all started because someone didn't think that NPC sororities are multi-cultural, and who went so far as to tell me that I was wrong to state that they were. Here is where I am drawing the definition of multi-cultural (Merriam-Webster)
Main Entry:
multi- Function: combining form Etymology: Latin, from multus much, many — more at meliorate
1 a: many : multiple : much <multivalent> b: more than two <multilateral> c: more than one <multiparous> <multibillion>

AND


Main Entry: cul·tur·al Pronunciation: \ˈkəlch-rəl, ˈkəl-chə-\ Function: adjective Date: circa 1864 1 : of or relating to culture or culturing

Using this definition, all NPC groups are indeed multi-cultural, as they all contain members from many different cultural backgrounds. I realize that GLOs who define themselves as multi-cultural chose to parse the word differently. That does not, in my estimation, mean that the dictionary meaning is incorrect. Different, yes, but not incorrect. It seems to me that there is actually a fair amount of misunderstanding and negativity that has derived from the newer, group-specific definition.




As to Christmas, the date of December 25th is of itself of no consequence. What is important is that a large portion of the Christian community have chosen that day to commemorate the birth of Christ. I always think of it as like the birthday of Queen Elizabeth II, which is celebrated in June even though that was not the month in which she was born - but the weather is much better then.
Many other faiths and beliefs have winter celebrations, and of course they are entitled to celebrate them. I do have a problem with taking symbols of these various faiths and using them simply because they are pretty, or popular, without even a basic respect for the meaning they have to others. A menorah is more than just a bunch of candles, a tree is more than just something to decorate, and I can't for the life of me figure out why you would want to take the symbolism away and just, for example, put a dead tree in your house. I don't worry too much about non-believers who do it - but I do find it sad that you can find Christians who have no idea of the symbolism involved in all the trappings. It's like those GLO members who don't realize the rich meaning of their symbols, crests, etc.

eta - I think the word "offended" is too strong for what I'm discussing - and that may be where some of the conflict has arisen.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by SWTXBelle

And Drole - I think the thread has gone fairly far afield from the original discussion of the ND incident. My stating my problem with ANYONE'S cultural/religious holidays or observances being co-opted as an excuse to get drunk is certainly not an attempt to excuse a chapter's ill-advised actions. It is a typical GC digression - I did want to point out that many times if it's not your ox being gored you will excuse behaviors that you yourself indulge in. I realize that because I'm a Gamma Phi you might think that I am somehow seeking to justify the ND chapter's actions - but I haven't. I think the statement from HQ is perfectly succinct and to the point.
I'd like to think you "know" me well enough, Drole, to know that I wouldn't support any activity, even by my sisters, that was insulting to anyone or any group. I find it interesting that you basically have said I have no right to be upset at the degradation of Mardi Gras because I come from a small, yet ancient, religious tradition. You've essentially negated my point of view, going so far as to lecture me about ecclesiastical history. I would argue that you shouldn't have to justify your beliefs in order to have them respected.

No, I made a non-serious comment that only the original celebrants of something should get to be offended by its misuse. I also stated the level of "offense" that I think is reasonable - one where a tradition or people is being actively mocked. I did not get the impression from you, nor do I believe I suggested, that you were truly defending this chapter. Though it is a digression it was started as a off-handed "well lots of things are offensive" that minimized the original incident. Besides I originally joined this thread for the lulz.

T

he funny thing is that this all started because someone didn't think that NPC sororities are multi-cultural, and who went so far as to tell me that I was wrong to state that they were. Here is where I am drawing the definition of multi-cultural (Merriam-Webster)
Main Entry:
multi- Function: combining form Etymology: Latin, from multus much, many — more at meliorate
1 a: many : multiple : much <multivalent> b: more than two <multilateral> c: more than one <multiparous> <multibillion>

AND


Main Entry: cul·tur·al Pronunciation: \ˈkəlch-rəl, ˈkəl-chə-\ Function: adjective Date: circa 1864 1 : of or relating to culture or culturing

Using this definition, all NPC groups are indeed multi-cultural, as they all contain members from many different cultural backgrounds. I realize that GLOs who define themselves as multi-cultural chose to parse the word differently. That does not, in my estimation, mean that the dictionary meaning is incorrect. Different, yes, but not incorrect. It seems to me that there is actually a fair amount of misunderstanding and negativity that has derived from the newer, group-specific definition.

They are multicultural without a multicultural focus. I think that everyone on here, including "someone" knows that. Representing ourselves as "multicultural sororities" when the common use of the term is something else is not a good idea.

Originally Posted by MysticCat

Perhaps not so much a service, but confession. The English name "Shrove Tuesday" (rather than "Fat Tuesday") hearkens back and refers to the pre-Reformation English tradition of going to confession (being shriven) on the Monday and Tuesday prior to Ash Wednesday. So at least etymologically, the English name carries a religious connotation that Mardi Gras or Carnival do not.

And I know you know where the Angican Church comes from , but I note that SWTXBelle referred to her Anglican experience as "high church." I do wonder if she is using "high church" as meaning "Anglo-Catholic" -- sometimes it means Anglo-Catholic and sometimes it doesn't. But one of the particulars of the Anglo-Catholic movement was to seek to return to a pre-Reformation English Christianity/catholicism, sans the pope as Vicar of Christ (primer inter pares as Bishop of Rome, yes; pope, no) and other "Roman abuses," of course. With such a perspective, Shrove Tuesday as a day of religious observance would make sense.

Just saying.

And everything I found suggested an English/Anglican tradition on Shrove Tuesday too I replied since Catholics were mentioned specifically and Anglicans were not.

[SWTXBelle]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

T
They are multicultural without a multicultural focus. I think that everyone on here, including "someone" knows that. Representing ourselves as "multicultural sororities" when the common use of the term is something else is not a good idea.

All I'd add is that we obviously disagree on what is "common" - the average person is more likely, imho, to define "multi-cultural" as Merriam-Webster does, and not as the relatively small percentage of Greeks who define themselves as multi-cultural do. In fact, even here on GC there seems to be a divide, with many NPC/IFC members using the M-W definition, while HBGLO/MCGLO use the newer, less-familiar definition which actually seems to be more describtive of focus, as you pointed out, then membership. NPCs have been criticized in the past because of a lack of multi-cultural members - and so it can look like a criticism when they are told they are not multi-cultural.
But the problem there is using a modifer (multi-cultural) by itself - without specifying whether it is a reference to members or focus. A lot of grief could be avoided, I think, if that were clear.

We need a lolcat ASAP. I'm all for the laughs, too.