What's wrong with our youth? Is it a psychosocial disorder? Is it the parents?

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by ISUKappa

But you're trying so hard to show us we're all wrong!


That was the point, genius, it's called sarcasm.

I know the point you're trying to make, but you're still generalizing a heckuva lot. I kind of hate to pull the "when you're a parent, you'll understand" card, but seriously, it's way, way different when you have kids of your own. Not to say that adults without kids can't see where parents come from, but parents have a BTDT mentality.

My son is two. He's in the middle of toddlerhood. That means defiance and lots of tantrums as he attempts to assert his independence and learn boundaries. As of now, we haven't had to spank, and maybe we never will, but it takes a lot of patience (of which I don't always have a steady supply) to deal some days. How do you balance discipline with letting him figure out the world around him by himself? It's hard. And, in my opinion, those decisions only get more difficult as children get older.

We can all give anecdotes as to how our parents did such and such and, see, I turned out fine. My parents spanked, they were a two-income household and weren't always able to attend and support me at every single activity I was involved in. I think I turned out okay (except for that stint in a Mexican prison - joking!). That doesn't mean someone in a similar situation necessarily turned out the same, though. Each person is different and needs different parenting styles (even within the same family).

Personal experiences are still opinions and based on only an individual-level version of fact. With millions of people in this world, we can't listen to everyone's story and exceptions to whatever perceived rules.

Yes, under and over-discipline can have a negative impact on kids. There's research on corporal punishment. This is why raising a kid is more than disciplining them when they are doing something wrong. You have to raise them when they are right and wrong.

Spank or not spank = parents' decisions that people can form opinions about but can't be legislated unless there's a clear case for child abuse.

So whether or not people choose to spank, RAISE YOUR KIDS so the CPS or corrective systems don't have to RAISE YOUR KIDS. It's hard for working parents and single parents but it isn't impossible. Even if you feel exhausted, frustrated, and helpless. Find help or reliquish your parenting rights so that another person or entity can do it.

[ISUKappa]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Personal experiences are still opinions and based on only an individual-level version of fact. With millions of people in this world, we can't listen to everyone's story and exceptions to whatever perceived rules.

That was my point. Parent the child you have according to their needs.

Yes, under and over-discipline can have a negative impact on kids. There's research on corporal punishment. This is why raising a kid is more than disciplining them when they are doing something wrong. You have to raise them when they are right and wrong.

Spank or not spank = parents' decisions that people can form opinions about but can't be legislated unless there's a clear case for child abuse.

So whether or not people choose to spank, RAISE YOUR KIDS so the CPS or corrective systems don't have to RAISE YOUR KIDS. It's hard for working parents and single parents but it isn't impossible. Even if you feel exhausted, frustrated, and helpless. Find help or reliquish your parenting rights so that another person or entity can do it.

I don't know if this is directed at me personally or if you're just making general statements.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by ISUKappa

I don't know if this is directed at me personally or if you're just making general statements.

If you needed a reminder to raise your kids so CPS or the correction system doesn't have to raise them, it was directed at you.

[ISUKappa]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

You're telling me that I am though. You have your opinions on the whole issue, and I have mine.

I don't think anyone in this thread has come out and said you're wrong. We all say it's your opinion, you're entitled to it, and we don't necessarily agree with it, but that opinion doesn't necessarily equal facts. You're the one who is hell bent on proving you're "right."

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

o.k. I did a little research on this topic. Here's what I found.

I was right. It has gotten worse. What you guys said about this not being new material was correct, but the problem has gotten worse.

So how am I wrong. I'm not saying you guys are wrong, because you've made some valid points, but I'm not wrong on the whole issue either.

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

I agree a little, but you have to look at the big picture. Look at what's being sold in stores. You see tabloids and most of what you see is negative. It shows celebs doing illegal things and getting away with it, or serving little or no time in jail for their actions. The gun laws have also changed in some states which is also a problem. The respect level for parents from their kids now is much lower than it was years ago. I totally disagree with you when you said it's not any different. The graphs that I looked at showed a steady rise in crime from adults who were at one time problem children. A lot of teenagers are also doing serious crime now.

It's really not that hard to see. It really doens't take science, statistics and graphs to figure it out. My opinion was pretty much right on, and I didn't need to look at any graphs or statistics to make that determination.

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

Whether you believe it or not, children have gotten much worse than they've ever been. The school shootings I mentioned earlier are proof of that. <snip>

I totally can't see how some of you can't see that kids are far worse than they've ever been. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by ISUKappa

I don't think anyone in this thread has come out and said you're wrong. We all say it's your opinion, you're entitled to it, and we don't necessarily agree with it, but that opinion doesn't necessarily equal facts. You're the one who is hell bent on proving you're "right."

Of course I think I'm right. I'm right about a lot of things most of the time, but I'm not the one who's getting totally "hell bent out of shape" and taking things personal like you are.

[ISUKappa]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

If you needed a reminder to raise your kids so CPS or the correction system doesn't have to raise them, it was directed at you.

Thankfully, no. Though we do have a very opinionated Great-Grandmother who likes to tell us how we should be raising our kids.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by ISUKappa

Thankfully, no. Though we do have a very opinionated Great-Grandmother who likes to tell us how we should be raising our kids.

Great-Grandmother? Wow.

Opinions are like a-holes, though.

[ISUKappa]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

Great-Grandmother? Wow.

We're fortunate to have three Great-Grandmothers and Great-Grandfather still around (though one Great-Grandmother is in very poor health).

Opinions are like a-holes, though.

Yep. Everyone has them and some of them stink.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

I'm not saying any of you are wrong. You're telling me that I am though. You have your opinions on the whole issue, and I have mine.

I don't think anyone has told you that you are "wrong." What we've said is that your arguments are so full of generalizations supported by (in ISUKappa's words) "'I think' statements" and (in DSTChaos's words) "'everything but the kitchen sink' explanations" that no one is finding your opinions persuasive.