What's wrong with our youth? Is it a psychosocial disorder? Is it the parents?

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by fantASTic

I really don't believe that kids today are more violent than before. I think there's a lot more exposure of it, though.

You can't really take those statistics as fact, cheerfulgreek. For example...as a scientific reviewer, I would instantly ask you this question: "The standard of what counts as violent crime has been greatly lowered since WWII. Did reviewers take that into account?" It's also worth finding out how much research was actually done on violent crime after WWII...I would definitely believe that a lot more crime went unreported in those days.

Statistics != science.

I agree a little, but you have to look at the big picture. Look at what's being sold in stores. You see tabloids and most of what you see is negative. It shows celebs doing illegal things and getting away with it, or serving little or no time in jail for their actions. The gun laws have also changed in some states which is also a problem. The respect level for parents from their kids now is much lower than it was years ago. I totally disagree with you when you said it's not any different. The graphs that I looked at showed a steady rise in crime from adults who were at one time problem children. A lot of teenagers are also doing serious crime now.

It's really not that hard to see. It really doens't take science, statistics and graphs to figure it out. My opinion was pretty much right on, and I didn't need to look at any graphs or statistics to make that determination.

[AGDee]

I guess I'm bothered by the broad brush you're using to paint that generation. The vast majority of kids are still good kids. When I worked in adolescent psych, I saw the most difficult teens on a daily basis. I got pretty worried, much as you are, that the whole generation was awful. I had to open my eyes though. We had a 20 bed unit which was not usually full, yet there were thousands and thousands of youth in our cachment area. The percentage of kids we saw annually was quite small compared to the total population and a lot of the kids in our program weren't even violent/acting out kids. Many of them were more depressed/suicidal. I started making a point of spending time with my very healthy, productive, and fun nieces and nephews.

Now? I have two middle schoolers myself. I went to an Eagle Court of Honor tonight and saw a large group of great boys who are very dedicated to bettering themselves and society. I have a Girl Scout as well as a Boy Scout. I am surrounded by kids who do well academically, are wholesome, thoughtful, nice kids engaged in healthy activities. I am impressed by their ability to converse about global warming, politics, and their belief systems. The majority are goal oriented. Do they have some classmates who are starting to get into drugs, having sex too early, etc? Yeah, they do. They also talk about how those kids are stupid for doing those things. They are also way more into community service than my generation was. I don't ever recall, outside of Girl Scouts, doing any kind of service projects. These kids do them a lot, in school, for various activities and even on their own.

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by AGDee

I guess I'm bothered by the broad brush you're using to paint that generation. The vast majority of kids are still good kids. When I worked in adolescent psych, I saw the most difficult teens on a daily basis. I got pretty worried, much as you are, that the whole generation was awful. I had to open my eyes though. We had a 20 bed unit which was not usually full, yet there were thousands and thousands of youth in our cachment area. The percentage of kids we saw annually was quite small compared to the total population and a lot of the kids in our program weren't even violent/acting out kids. Many of them were more depressed/suicidal. I started making a point of spending time with my very healthy, productive, and fun nieces and nephews.

Now? I have two middle schoolers myself. I went to an Eagle Court of Honor tonight and saw a large group of great boys who are very dedicated to bettering themselves and society. I have a Girl Scout as well as a Boy Scout. I am surrounded by kids who do well academically, are wholesome, thoughtful, nice kids engaged in healthy activities. I am impressed by their ability to converse about global warming, politics, and their belief systems. The majority are goal oriented. Do they have some classmates who are starting to get into drugs, having sex too early, etc? Yeah, they do. They also talk about how those kids are stupid for doing those things. They are also way more into community service than my generation was. I don't ever recall, outside of Girl Scouts, doing any kind of service projects. These kids do them a lot, in school, for various activities and even on their own.

I never said all. How am I painting a whole generation of children? I'm just voicing my opinion. Some of the things I mentioned turned out to be facts. I don't disagree with you at all. There are still some very good children today, but I'm just saying it's far worse than it's ever been.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

I never said all. How am I painting a whole generation of children?

By speaking in such broad general terms -- things such as titles asking "What's wrong with our youth," as though something's wrong with all of them.

Kids! What's that matter with all these kids today?!

There are still some very good children today, but I'm just saying it's far worse than it's ever been.

Now there's an awfully broad brush -- "it's far worse than it's ever been." Sure about that? I'm not at all.

I do, however, think that we hear a lot more about some things than we ever did, given that we now have news 24/7 on TV and the web. I'm not convinced that it's that much more prevelant now than it ever has been in history.

[AGDee]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

By speaking in such broad general terms -- things such as titles asking "What's wrong with our youth," as though something's wrong with all of them.

Kids! What's that matter with all these kids today?!

Now there's an awfully broad brush -- "it's far worse than it's ever been." Sure about that? I'm not at all.

I do, however, think that we hear a lot more about some things than we ever did, given that we now have news 24/7 on TV and the web. I'm not convinced that it's that much more prevelant now than it ever has been in history.

Thank you for answering in my absence. You have said it all perfectly!

[Glitter650]

I don't think violence is any more "common" now than before, but I do think parents don't hold their kids accountable anymore.
I mean I was reading an article about the cheerleader beating and the parents of the beaters make it sound like it was no big deal. I believe even one of the parent's said "if she was shoved so hard into the wall, why didn't she leave a dent in it ?!!!!" I mean

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

By speaking in such broad general terms -- things such as titles asking "What's wrong with our youth," as though something's wrong with all of them.

Kids! What's that matter with all these kids today?!

I think it was a great title for the thread, because I totally think kids are out of control now. I see it all the time when I go grocery shopping.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

I think it was a great title for the thread, because I totally think kids are out of control now. I see it all the time when I go grocery shopping.

So do I. My point is that people 50 years ago said pretty much the same thing. Adults throughout history have said the same thing.

BTW, I also see lots and lots of kids who are well-behaved and off to a good start being good citizens. So I think that the blanket statement "What's wrong with our youth" is way too hyperbolic.

Besides, the only thing wrong with my youth is that it's 30 years in the past.

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

So do I. My point is that people 50 years ago said pretty much the same thing. Adults throughout history have said the same thing.

BTW, I also see lots and lots of kids who are well-behaved and off to a good start being good citizens. So I think that the blanket statement "What's wrong with our youth" is way too hyperbolic.

Besides, the only thing wrong with my youth is that it's 30 years in the past.

MC I agree with you, but 50 years ago kids weren't bringing guns to school. A knife or a blade maybe, but not guns. School shootings depend on access to guns. Mass murders tend not to happen in school or anywhere else when knives or blades are the only weapons available. It's the increase in firearms that has coincided with the recent string of school shootings. The number of guns in the U.S. has doubled since around the 70s but has pretty much been stable since the late 80s. But the access to guns is spreading rapidly and the increase has actually been fueled by people who are already gun owners acquiring additional firearems.

Yes there are kids that are starting off to a good start. I don't disagree here.

[fantASTic]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

I agree a little, but you have to look at the big picture. Look at what's being sold in stores. You see tabloids and most of what you see is negative. It shows celebs doing illegal things and getting away with it, or serving little or no time in jail for their actions. The gun laws have also changed in some states which is also a problem. The respect level for parents from their kids now is much lower than it was years ago. I totally disagree with you when you said it's not any different. The graphs that I looked at showed a steady rise in crime from adults who were at one time problem children. A lot of teenagers are also doing serious crime now.

It's really not that hard to see. It really doens't take science, statistics and graphs to figure it out. My opinion was pretty much right on, and I didn't need to look at any graphs or statistics to make that determination.

Actually, yes, you do. You can't just say, "Well, in 1940 there were x amount of people in prison and now there's 3x that." What about the population boom? Even besides that, there are TONS of contributing factors - like ones I already mentioned - that DO make a difference. Your opinion is not completely, if at all, correct, and you should not present it as fact.

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by fantASTic

Actually, yes, you do. You can't just say, "Well, in 1940 there were x amount of people in prison and now there's 3x that." What about the population boom? Even besides that, there are TONS of contributing factors - like ones I already mentioned - that DO make a difference. Your opinion is not completely, if at all, correct, and you should not present it as fact.

Whether you believe it or not, children have gotten much worse than they've ever been. The school shootings I mentioned earlier are proof of that. Of course they don't happen all of the time. In fact they're rare. They're an unprecedented kind of adolescent violence. I don't have a complete understanding of why they happen and I've barely begun to consider their long term consequences. I do have an opinion on the problem though. It could be from mental illness to lack of discipline, from violent media to the availability of guns. Do these theories hold water? I think they do. I'm not saying school shootings never occured in the past, but I do know they began to increase in the early 90s, peaking in the late 90s, then falling back to zero in the early part of the 21st century. Also, they only dropped off because school officials caught the problem before it got started.

Is violence publicized more now? Yes, and I think media coverage does contribute to school violence panic and by far aggravates the difficulties for communities in which rampage episodes have occured. Also, youth violence itself, not just the shootings, increased dramatically in the late 1980s and early 90s, a period in which rates of crime and violence among other age groups actually went down. I don't think kids and guns mix well, because the increase in homicides committed by youths came ENTIRELY in the form of murders involving firearms.

Yes, there are other factors, but we have to start by looking at which youths are violent. I'm not being biased, but I think boys are more likely to commit violent acts than girls. I also think that almost all violent offenders first manifest their tendencies between the age of 14 and 18, based on patterns that I've seen. Beyond age, race or whatever, other risk factors for violence among youths include domestic violence and abuse, weak family bonding and ineffective supervision, lack of opportunities for education and employment, peers who engage in or accept violence, drug and alcohol use, gun possession and individual temperament. Kids have always looked to elevate their status among peers, to have a permanent identity so they can acquire power over others, or find justice or retribution. Now, they use firearms to do it.

I think the increase in violence comes from violent video games, availability of guns, the crack cocaine epidemic, and a culture of violence, but I don't think any of these factors work entirely by themselves. It starts with the deteriorating social and economic conditions of inner city neighborhoods. On top of the drug epidemic, when they're unavailable, kids find other resources to get high off of. Now you have to be 18 to purchase spray paint, glue and/or Robitussin. That's ridiculous. I totally can't see how some of you can't see that kids are far worse than they've ever been. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[RU OX Alum]

school shootings started happening back in the 60's or 70's though, didn't they?

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by RU OX Alum

school shootings started happening back in the 60's or 70's though, didn't they?

The University of Texas shootings were in 1966.

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

Whether you believe it or not, children have gotten much worse than they've ever been. The school shootings I mentioned earlier are proof of that.

How are school shootings, which you admit are rare, proof that children have gotten much worse than they've ever been? Oh, I forgot . . . the proof is in school shootings and the grocery store behavior of children.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but I've yet to see anything in your posts that actually supports your opinion.

[DSTCHAOS]

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

Whether you believe it or not, children have gotten much worse than they've ever been. The school shootings I mentioned earlier are proof of that. Of course they don't happen all of the time. In fact they're rare. They're an unprecedented kind of adolescent violence. I don't have a complete understanding of why they happen and I've barely begun to consider their long term consequences. I do have an opinion on the problem though. It could be from mental illness to lack of discipline, from violent media to the availability of guns. Do these theories hold water? I think they do. I'm not saying school shootings never occured in the past, but I do know they began to increase in the early 90s, peaking in the late 90s, then falling back to zero in the early part of the 21st century. Also, they only dropped off because school officials caught the problem before it got started.

They are rare and they have still received outrage and exaggerated analyses of the "state of our youth." Just like perceived increases in homicides have made people afraid of people and causes-of-death that they are least likely to actually be victimized by. Tragedies always result in exaggerated assessments that are based on a spouting of opinions and fears rather than information.

Plus, people are still going based on what they see reported in the media and others' fears and opinions. The public isn't conducting research on how many school shootings occurred before Columbine made it big and whether there have been any measurable changes to contribute an increase in violence to. You have to also consider that where such violence occurs matters. The mainstream wasn't concerned about violence as long as they THOUGHT it was kept in an "inner city and/or lower socioeconomic status bubble." As with any other incident, people's fears aren't based on an informed opinion.

Originally Posted by cheerfulgreek

Is violence publicized more now? Yes, and I think media coverage does contribute to school violence panic and by far aggravates the difficulties for communities in which rampage episodes have occured. Also, youth violence itself, not just the shootings, increased dramatically in the late 1980s and early 90s, a period in which rates of crime and violence among other age groups actually went down. I don't think kids and guns mix well, because the increase in homicides committed by youths came ENTIRELY in the form of murders involving firearms.

Yes, there are other factors, but we have to start by looking at which youths are violent. I'm not being biased, but I think boys are more likely to commit violent acts than girls. I also think that almost all violent offenders first manifest their tendencies between the age of 14 and 18, based on patterns that I've seen. Beyond age, race or whatever, other risk factors for violence among youths include domestic violence and abuse, weak family bonding and ineffective supervision, lack of opportunities for education and employment, peers who engage in or accept violence, drug and alcohol use, gun possession and individual temperament. Kids have always looked to elevate their status among peers, to have a permanent identity so they can acquire power over others, or find justice or retribution. Now, they use firearms to do it.

I think the increase in violence comes from violent video games, availability of guns, the crack cocaine epidemic, and a culture of violence, but I don't think any of these factors work entirely by themselves. It starts with the deteriorating social and economic conditions of inner city neighborhoods. On top of the drug epidemic, when they're unavailable, kids find other resources to get high off of. Now you have to be 18 to purchase spray paint, glue and/or Robitussin. That's ridiculous. I totally can't see how some of you can't see that kids are far worse than they've ever been. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

This is called an "everything but the kitchen sink" explanation. It makes it difficult to be accurate or inaccurate when you throw everything in there. There's a plethora of research on this topic, including research that discusses gender and violence (if boys are more violent than girls, it is more of a learned behavior and also based on the acceptability of boys' violence whereas girls are told to "be a lady"--one viable explanation for the increase in girls' violence is that women feel more liberated to do what men have always been allowed to) and the supposed "increase" in youth violence in the 1980s and the 1990s.

People can have whatever opinions about this topic but initiatives for change (not just discussion) can't be based on "everything but the kitchen sink" opinions. We can take whatever precautions that we want but that doesn't mean that every precaution is equally significant in the violence equation. The media (lyrics, video games, movies, shows...) is one factor that matters because EVERY human is affected by images both consciously and subconsciously. However, the average human will not turn this affect into violence or crime and deviance. This symbolizes that there are safety nets such as effective parenting, an attachment and belief in the legitimacy of norms and laws, education, and sound mental and emotional health (as they impact reasoning and self-regulation ability) that need to be targeted beyond just saying that the media, guns, or whatever are to blame.

[cheerfulgreek]

Originally Posted by DSTCHAOS

You have to also consider that where such violence occurs matters. The mainstream wasn't concerned about violence as long as they THOUGHT it was kept in an "inner city and/or lower socioeconomic status bubble." As with any other incident, people's fears aren't based on an informed opinion.

Well, people tend to think of small town life as stable and close, the opposite of big cities. Yet change has come to many parts of the United States. I think that dense social ties have given way to more impersonal relations in rural areas and small towns. We have to understand that demographic change brought on by migration and population turnover have disrupted tight social ties between families and neighbors. I do think that a lot of the violence among youths is indeed concentrated in poor areas of our nation's inner cities. You also have to understand that during the 1970s joblessness increased in inner city communities because of the outmigration of the middle class and the movement of blue collar jobs away from U.S. cities. Economic and social stress contributed to the breakdown of families and other community supports for children and adolescents. In search of support, identity, and meaning in the face of declining opportunity, more youths became involved in gangs, and with the introduction of crack cocaine, gangs turned to this volatile end of the drug market, where violence is the only available mode of protection and social control. Also rates of crime are much higher in the South than anywhere else.

You also have to look at untreated mental illness as part of the problem too.