% of students greek or # of chapters on campus

[BigRedBeta]

Originally Posted by Zeta13Girl

1.) How do you determine the strength of the greek system at a school the % of people that are greek or how many different chapters are on the campus?


2.) Secondly, would you rather a high percentage of greeks with just a couple chapters or a smaller percentage of greeks with a bunch of chapters?

Neither.

To me a strong greek system means that the Greeks are doing well - chapters aren't in trouble of going under, Greeks are visible on campus (ie random people on campus tell you that they know people in their classes or campus organizations are greek), and most importantly, Greeks are excelling in the classroom and on campus. This means the All-Greek/All-fraternity/All-sorority GPA's are higher than the All-Campus/All-men's/All-women's GPA's, and that greeks are overrepresented (at least by % of students who are greek) on things like Student government, Senior Honorary societies, Homecoming Royalty, New Student orientation leaders and the like.

Basically, a strong greek system means that students are better off and more successful if they join than if they don't.

[gee_ess]

BigRedBeta said :
To me a strong greek system means that the Greeks are doing well - chapters aren't in trouble of going under, Greeks are visible on campus (ie random people on campus tell you that they know people in their classes or campus organizations are greek), and most importantly, Greeks are excelling in the classroom and on campus. This means the All-Greek/All-fraternity/All-sorority GPA's are higher than the All-Campus/All-men's/All-women's GPA's, and that greeks are overrepresented (at least by % of students who are greek) on things like Student government, Senior Honorary societies, Homecoming Royalty, New Student orientation leaders and the like.


I agree with this definition. In general, whenever I speak of a strong Greek system, this is the definition I am thinking in my head . With this definition, I would also add, that the recruitment system is very competitive - large numbers vying for bids.


Basically, a strong greek system means that students are better off and more successful if they join than if they don't


This, I don't agree with. I think you can be successful without being Greek and that nonGreeks are doing just fine on campus without a GLO affiliation.

[BigRedBeta]

Originally Posted by gee_ess

Basically, a strong greek system means that students are better off and more successful if they join than if they don't


This, I don't agree with. I think you can be successful without being Greek and that nonGreeks are doing just fine on campus without a GLO affiliation.

I'm not arguing that non-greeks can't be successful at a school. I just feel that if you're going to start talking about a strong greek system, there should be positive, tangible, measurable effects for joining. But even then, Greek membership is neither necessary nor sufficient for success.

Perhaps a better way of saying it is that if you go Greek, the likelihood of you being successful is increased.

For example - when Beta looks at GPA's to determine who wins the award for the highest GPA within a district and nationally, they look at the difference between the Chapter's GPA and the All-men's Average NOT the overall Chapter GPA. My chapter at Nebraska has won this award each year for the last 8 despite the fact that our usual 3.45 GPA is eclipsed by a number of schools like MIT and Columbia and other Ivy League schools. However, those chapters, despite their 3.7's or whatever, are BELOW their all-men's average. You could argue, that by joining Beta at those schools, their academics have been affected negatively for whatever reason, rather than Beta having a positive effect on their grades. That's the distinction I'm trying to make. This isn't to say that those guys in the chapter won't be successful in their future, just that they aren't as successful as their non-greek counterparts. It's also not to say joining Beta at Nebraska is a cure-all for the ills of a poor student, or that you have to join a chapter at Nebraska in order to obtain a GPA that's above average, just that on the whole, Greeks are more successful in the classroom than the average student.

[Lucky SC]

Originally Posted by BigRedBeta

I'm not arguing that non-greeks can't be successful at a school. I just feel that if you're going to start talking about a strong greek system, there should be positive, tangible, measurable effects for joining. But even then, Greek membership is neither necessary nor sufficient for success.

Perhaps a better way of saying it is that if you go Greek, the likelihood of you being successful is increased.

For example - when Beta looks at GPA's to determine who wins the award for the highest GPA within a district and nationally, they look at the difference between the Chapter's GPA and the All-men's Average NOT the overall Chapter GPA. My chapter at Nebraska has won this award each year for the last 8 despite the fact that our usual 3.45 GPA is eclipsed by a number of schools like MIT and Columbia and other Ivy League schools. However, those chapters, despite their 3.7's or whatever, are BELOW their all-men's average. You could argue, that by joining Beta at those schools, their academics have been affected negatively for whatever reason, rather than Beta having a positive effect on their grades. That's the distinction I'm trying to make. This isn't to say that those guys in the chapter won't be successful in their future, just that they aren't as successful as their non-greek counterparts. It's also not to say joining Beta at Nebraska is a cure-all for the ills of a poor student, or that you have to join a chapter at Nebraska in order to obtain a GPA that's above average, just that on the whole, Greeks are more successful in the classroom than the average student.

would you say thats because of the chapter itself though, or it just attracts those kinds of people into rush.

[violetpretty]

This post reflects a Panhellenic/NPC POV (because that is what I am most familiar with):

I agree partly with BigRedBeta, but I think it is important to consider quantitative AND qualitative factors collectively. A strong Greek community has plenty of diversity among different chapters (enough diversity that you could see at least half of the independent student body in a chapter), and to do that, there need to be a reasonable number of chapters (I'd say, at least 5).

Of course, that has to be considered with chapter size and percentage of the student body that is Greek. This affects the visibility of Greeks. IUP for example, has 11 or 12 NPC chapters, but the percentage involved is low and the chapters are very small. I wouldn't call IUP a place with a "strong Greek community" for that reason. However, that doesn't diminish the experiences of the members of fraternities and sororities at these schools.

However, I think the most important thing to consider is the quality of the chapters collectively. Do the Greeks have a good relationship with the administration (i.e. not hazing, no alcohol issues)? Are their grades better than non-Greeks? Are they meeting (or better yet, exceeding) requirements set forth by their HQs? Is the community stable (or better yet, growing) size-wise? Do they have a supportive Greek Life Office with high expectations for their chapters? Are Greeks looked at in a positive light by most of the non-Greek students? Are Greeks well represented in campus leadership positions? You could have a large (number of chapters and percentage involved) Greek community, but if chapters are not contributing positively, the community is not strong.

I disagree with LuckySC with the implication (correct me if I'm wrong) that tradition automatically makes for a strong Greek community. A Greek community doesn't have to be 100 years old to be strong. Elon comes to mind (at least with Panhellenic). Their three oldest NPC chapters were founded in the 1970s. They have 8 chapters currently with 31% of the women in sororities; they've added 5 NPC chapters in the last 15ish years, and continue to grow. The chapters are exceeding their HQ's standards. Elon is a very strong Greek school without the "tradition" that SEC schools have.

I'd agree that SEC schools are strong Greek schools, but it's not their "tradition" and "way of life" that make them so. They are strong because they fit all of the quantitative and qualitative criteria I mentioned above.

[Lucky SC]

Originally Posted by BigRedBeta

Neither.

To me a strong greek system means that the Greeks are doing well - chapters aren't in trouble of going under, Greeks are visible on campus (ie random people on campus tell you that they know people in their classes or campus organizations are greek), and most importantly, Greeks are excelling in the classroom and on campus. This means the All-Greek/All-fraternity/All-sorority GPA's are higher than the All-Campus/All-men's/All-women's GPA's, and that greeks are overrepresented (at least by % of students who are greek) on things like Student government, Senior Honorary societies, Homecoming Royalty, New Student orientation leaders and the like.

Basically, a strong greek system means that students are better off and more successful if they join than if they don't.

ty i was wondering how long it would take for someone to agree with me and see what i was talkin about lol.

and i'm set in my ways violet, hands down i think the system is better down here atleast for the IFC, i dunno bout NPC. People go to schools like Alabama and go greek not because of the education at that school, but because generations and generations have, most of the people have been bred that they will do the same thing from a child.

Out of my direct family, i'm the first to go to college so not so much in my case except that i knew i wanted to go to an SEC school simply because of the athletics aspect. But many of the people i've met here at school have had family members past their grandparents go to the school and done the same greek chapter, to me that speaks volumes.

[violetpretty]

Originally Posted by Lucky SC

ty i was wondering how long it would take for someone to agree with me and see what i was talkin about lol.

and i'm set in my ways violet, hands down i think the system is better down here atleast for the IFC, i dunno bout NPC. People go to schools like Alabama and go greek not because of the education at that school, but because generations and generations have, most of the people have been bred that they will do the same thing from a child.

Out of my direct family, i'm the first to go to college so not so much in my case except that i knew i wanted to go to an SEC school simply because of the athletics aspect. But many of the people i've met here at school have had family members past their grandparents go to the school and done the same greek chapter, to me that speaks volumes.

I wasn't making an argument of "who is better". My argument was "does the Greek community have these things? If yes, they are strong." The original question was, "How do you determine strength?" not "Who is the best?"

Maybe generations go Greek at SEC schools because the Community is "strong" (by the criteria I outlined)and has been for a long time. I wasn't saying that "tradition" is the antithesis to a strong community (definitely not), but that "tradition" does not make or break a strong Greek community. I'll edit my post to more clearly reflect that.

I'll give another example that all of our fratty posters can agree with. Washington & Lee. Their Panhellenic community is only around 20 years old, but their Panhellenic is not weak by any means. They have a reasonable number of chapters, incredible percentage of Greeks, they are growing, they are chapters well-regarded by their HQs and the University. They (meaning Panhellenic chapters) do not have the age and "tradition", but W&L is almost always mentioned whenever the fratties talk about strong Greek schools. W&L has more "tradition" on the IFC side, but does the lack of Panhellenic tradition weaken the Panhellenic strength? No way! Is W&L Panhellenic only strong because of the IFC tradition and not because of their own merits? Absolutely not.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by violetpretty

I'll give another example that all of our fratty posters can agree with. Washington & Lee. Their Panhellenic community is only around 20 years old, but their Panhellenic is not weak by any means. They have a reasonable number of chapters, incredible percentage of Greeks, they are growing, they are chapters well-regarded by their HQs and the University. They (meaning Panhellenic chapters) do not have the age and "tradition", but W&L is almost always mentioned whenever the fratties talk about strong Greek schools. W&L has more "tradition" on the IFC side, but does the lack of Panhellenic tradition weaken the Panhellenic strength? No way! Is W&L Panhellenic only strong because of the IFC tradition and not because of their own merits? Absolutely not.

Well, I think the major reason W&L gets respect from "fratties" is the IFC, not Panhel. But yeah. I find it pretty hard to argue that W&L isn't one of the strongest if not the strongest Greek systems in the nation. Although the counterargument would be that the fraternities are plagued by risk management issues and generally don't care about what their nationals want (of course, that would only make them "stronger" in the eyes of some).

W&L Panhellenic is amazing because it's such a large system (percentage-wise), and because the chapters are generally pretty successful at winning awards, recruiting great membership, etc.

The recent addition of NPHC chapters to W&L has actually upped Greek percentage even further.

[TSteven]

Originally Posted by Lucky SC

People go to schools like Alabama and go greek not because of the education at that school, but because generations and generations have, most of the people have been bred that they will do the same thing from a child.

Animals are bred. People are reared.

Originally Posted by Lucky SC

And to me the most important part of the whole thing is the social aspect, i mean as much as you would like to believe that (for example) a Sigma Chi is going to help out any other Sigma Chi around the country, that just aint gonna happen. You aren't going to hire someone based off of their fraternal background rather then job qualification. I think people put a little bit too much emphasis on the "perks" of going greek. It's overwhelmingly a social thing, you get a lot of driven people in them who do a lot on campus because that is the type of people they attract, driven people will strive for excellence no matter what and sign up for lots of stuff. No matter how strong your greek system is, its not gonna shape out the leaders of America, its kids in college having a good time, class is where that happens.

What personal experience has helped you to arrive at this opinion?

Originally Posted by nittanyalum

Hey, Lucky, I've usually enjoyed your posts, but I have to say, for someone who's basically only been on the periphery of the greek system so far, you're talking out of your a$$ throughout most of this post.

No kidding.

[breathesgelatin]

Originally Posted by ta kala

I have to disagree a little bit here. My experience with schools like W&L with such high percentage of Greeks is that many of the women go Greek because that's what you do - not because of the benefits it can bring you. When talking with them, it's hard for them to see the leadership opportunities and other things that will make them better people post grad. So while they are a strong system, with lots of people, I think you can't just look at percentage and growth.

And what exactly is your experience with W&L Panhellenic? Or do you just know about schools like W&L?

ETA: OK - I just searched and I see that you're a consultant for KD who's visited W&L. That's cool. I was a finalist for a consultant position with Pi Phi back in the day. I'll say one thing as someone with presumably way more experience (4 years of it) with W&L Panhellenic than you: please don't judge all of W&L Panhellenic attitudes based on your interactions with the KD chapter. Thanks.