John McCain: Is he "Natural-Born"?

[scbelle]

Originally Posted by LionInMI

Hi, this is me and this subject has been quite the topic of debate in my family since nittanyalum sent me the link to the thread. My Dad is retired Navy and my brothers are active military, one of my nephews was born on a base in Germany so that brother is particularly interested in this too.

My Dad and I spent a lot of time on the phone and googled as we talked. I do believe this should be a nonissue about McCain's candidacy, but I see where the idea that it might take a Supreme Court decision to put a "final word" on it comes from.

My Dad's opinion is that I was born under the U.S. flag to American parents on an American installation on land leased by the U.S. government and my birth was recorded by the Department of State, so there could be no misinterpretation of my birthright.

But I do see the gray area that has been referenced if someone takes the "strict constructionist" viewpoint. Googling about the leases we hold in Cuba and Okinawa (where we also lived) was really interesting. Castro hasn't cashed our lease payments since 1959 and many Okinawans oppose the continued forced lease of their land to the U.S.

We turned up an article in the Christian Science Monitor from 2002 that put an interesting spin on how the U.S. even defines the land it leases in Cuba. When efforts to extend constitutional rights to the detainees in Guantanamo Bay were raised, the government (some might say conveniently) argued that the base was still Cuban "sovereign territory", not U.S. sovereign territory (so they didn't have to extend U.S. protections to the prisoners). So it feels to me like they blurred the issue even more with those arguments. Here's the article: http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0320/p03s01-usju.html

So maybe the definition comes down to whether "natural born" depends on someone being born on U.S. "controlled" land or U.S. "sovereign" land? Military bases would absolutely fall under the controlled land definition, thereby extending all military or diplomatic kids born overseas the same "natural" designation.

I told my Dad how upsetting it was to learn that I may not be able to run for President now. He said he'd vote for me anyway.

My dad said that, too. Yay for levelheaded fathers. All of the stuff I read indicates that if it did come to a Supreme Court decision that McCain would win the case. I don't understand the wiki article that says that children are not subject to US jurisdiction when born overseas. But while they SAY that, it's not functionally true. When a child of military parents are born here in Germany, for example, the parents receive the German birth certificate (a long and short form). You are then required to file paperwork for: a Consular Report of Citizen birth abroad, a social security card, a US passport with a SOFA stamp (which means that you, as a dependent of a military person shall abide by the agreement made by the US and Germany) and must register in DEERS, the system that keeps track of vital stats and eligibility for benefits, namely Tricare coverage. You are subject to all of the rules and laws that govern military posts, which are put in place by the US government.

I also saw how in 2004 a representative from OK had introduced the Natural Born Citizen Act, but it died. I wish they would reintroduce that bill. It would make things so much easier... not only for military or government children born abroad, but also for foreign-born children adopted by US citizens. <Hey, then Maddox and Zihara could be president one day... >

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by skylark

So who would have standing to sue?

I'm really not sure.

Originally Posted by scbelle

I don't understand the wiki article that says that children are not subject to US jurisdiction when born overseas.

Just to be straight, it was the Department of State that said that.

But while they SAY that, it's not functionally true. When a child of military parents are born here in Germany, for example, the parents receive the German birth certificate (a long and short form). You are then required to file paperwork for: a Consular Report of Citizen birth abroad, a social security card, a US passport with a SOFA stamp (which means that you, as a dependent of a military person shall abide by the agreement made by the US and Germany) and must register in DEERS, the system that keeps track of vital stats and eligibility for benefits, namely Tricare coverage. You are subject to all of the rules and laws that govern military posts, which are put in place by the US government.

Ah, that's interesting. Just based on what you've described, and invoking my continuing disclaimer that I may not know what I'm talking about , it sounds like what the Department of State describes may be the legal status of things -- that perhaps you're not a citizen by virtue of your birth but by virtue of the filed and approved paperwork.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by MysticCat

I'm really not sure.
Just to be straight, it was the Department of State that said that.

Ah, that's interesting. Just based on what you've described, and invoking my continuing disclaimer that I may not know what I'm talking about , it sounds like what the Department of State describes may be the legal status of things -- that perhaps you're not a citizen by virtue of your birth but by virtue of the filed and approved paperwork.

I think they are saying that a child whose parents were not Americans wouldn't automatically become so by being born on base, which is different from saying that a child born to American parents on base wouldn't.

Being born on base alone wouldn't do it. Having parents who were Americans and could prove it, would.

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by UGAalum94

Being born on base alone wouldn't do it. Having parents who were Americans and could prove it, would.

Possibly, but I'm not sure that's what they're saying.