Letters on Bid Day???

[fantASTic]

Originally Posted by SthrnZeta

Sororities do all sorts of little things that could technically constitute hazing if you want to take it that far, but then you lose some of the fun of traditions that some women hold very dear. I could go into a list of things my chapter did that you may consider hazing (in that oh so gray area) but I'd be messing with ritual and traditions. All I'm saying is, I disagree with you and you disagree with me. Simple enough.

That's your chapter, not everyone's. I honestly can't think of ONE thing we do with NMs that could even be in a gray area. Of course, my school is known for being extremely strict with hazing laws - it is simply not tolerated among the NPC/NIC groups on campus. [I can't speak for the NPHC; I don't really know any chapter well enough to say about it.]

And there is nothing wrong with pointing out that you're being contradictory.

[SthrnZeta]

If I didn't feel hurt in some way or humiliated, then I don't feel it was hazing. I think some people take the hazing issue a little far for political correctness sake and don't see that some of it is merely in good fun. I was honestly jealous of the girls who had to wear their pledge ribbons all the time, I would have been proud to wear my sorority colors every day whether I was told to or not. Isn't it expected that sisters wear sorority paraphanalia during recruitment and that new members especially are told to do so during COR afterwards - and that's not considered hazing. I'm just saying, by your rationale, a lot of things that we ALL do could be considered hazing and I don't feel telling a new member that it is more appropriate to wait to wear our letters until they know their full meaning is hazing. Your chapter and you may feel differently, but it was our campus climate to keep this tradition and again, I don't feel it's hazing. You're acting like I had my fat circled!!!

[AlexMack]

So the deal with my chapter was that we were allowed to get letters as NMs, but our chapter tradition was that our mom got us our first set of letters (I've expounded upon our mom-daughter families elsewhere, if anyone wants a rundown, I'll give it again). We didn't find out who our mothers were until I-week.
This thread actually makes me think of the letters in AIM profiles issue. Something that's not familiar to you more mature ladies is the issue of instant messenger profiles.
When I got my bid I was SO proud to put my letters in my profile but a friend, sister and recent alum of my chapter (friend first for 4 years prior) said that while she didn't care, there would be sisters who would. So I whipped them out my profile and told my pledge sisters to do the same.
Well my big (also the chapter president!) noticed this immediately and asked me what was up so I told her and she bristled and said that we were all allowed to put the letters up and if anyone complained to send them to her.

[SthrnZeta]

We never had that issue with AIM profiles, sisters didn't care what was up there, as long as it was positive. For some reason, it was all about those stitched block letters But I can tell you, it felt so good to wear them finally the day of initiation and know that everyone who saw me in them knew I was a sister and not just a NM.

[SydneyK]

Originally Posted by SthrnZeta

... everyone who saw me in them knew I was a sister and not just a NM.

The bold emphasis is mine... but that's all that stood out to me from this post. I saw the change in terminology during my college years - I was a pledge, when I left, the new girls were NMs. Even having been called a pledge, I don't think any initiated sister (in my chapter - gotta get that disclaimer in there) would have called us "JUST" a pledge (or NM).

That's part of the attitude that drives the hazing argument - you're basically saying that NMs are lesser people than initiated sisters.

[Drolefille]

Originally Posted by SthrnZeta

If I didn't feel hurt in some way or humiliated, then I don't feel it was hazing. I think some people take the hazing issue a little far for political correctness sake and don't see that some of it is merely in good fun. I was honestly jealous of the girls who had to wear their pledge ribbons all the time, I would have been proud to wear my sorority colors every day whether I was told to or not. Isn't it expected that sisters wear sorority paraphanalia during recruitment and that new members especially are told to do so during COR afterwards - and that's not considered hazing. I'm just saying, by your rationale, a lot of things that we ALL do could be considered hazing and I don't feel telling a new member that it is more appropriate to wait to wear our letters until they know their full meaning is hazing. Your chapter and you may feel differently, but it was our campus climate to keep this tradition and again, I don't feel it's hazing. You're acting like I had my fat circled!!!

While that may be your personal definition of hazing, that's not the one used by HQs. Did you wear your sorority colors every day? Since you would have been proud to do so even though it wasn't a requirement?

Due to your phrasing, I'm guessing no. Why? Because you weren't required.

BTW, stop please with the "your chapter and you" thing. Think about (Inter)Natonal HQs... not chapters.

[fantASTic]

Originally Posted by SthrnZeta

I was honestly jealous of the girls who had to wear their pledge ribbons all the time, I would have been proud to wear my sorority colors every day whether I was told to or not.

Whether you're 'proud of it' or not, it's still hazing.

Originally Posted by SthrnZeta

Isn't it expected that sisters wear sorority paraphanalia during recruitment and that new members especially are told to do so during COR afterwards

Yes and no. Yes, sisters are to wear letters; it encourages interest. As far as NMs, if they didn't want to wear letters we wouldn't make them; nor would we require them not to. We would ask them to, but if they didn't, it's not a big deal. It depends on how things are run.

Originally Posted by SthrnZeta

I'm just saying, by your rationale, a lot of things that we ALL do could be considered hazing and I don't feel telling a new member that it is more appropriate to wait to wear our letters until they know their full meaning is hazing. Your chapter and you may feel differently, but it was our campus climate to keep this tradition and again, I don't feel it's hazing. You're acting like I had my fat circled!!!

Regardless of what you 'feel', it's hazing. Sorry that your definition doesn't match the law.


I would be careful about how you are representing ZTA in this thread. You're advocating hazing, you know. And as all GCers know, it's easy to find out who someone is. I'd just be more careful.

[SthrnZeta]

Do you mean to tell me that nothing you had in your new member period would constitute hazing by "the law?" I find that hard to believe.

[33girl]

Originally Posted by fantASTic

Whether you're 'proud of it' or not, it's still hazing.

How can a feeling of pride be hazing? She's not saying anyone made her do anything. Plus, you have no idea who the other groups were or what their policies are, so you have a lot of balls trying to say that something they required their pledges to do is hazing. Before you make that accusation, check the nationall policies. Not everyone's are the same (to wit: A E Phi not being allowed to wear their letters as pledges).

[fantASTic]

Originally Posted by 33girl

How can a feeling of pride be hazing? She's not saying anyone made her do anything. Plus, you have no idea who the other groups were or what their policies are, so you have a lot of balls trying to say that something they required their pledges to do is hazing. Before you make that accusation, check the nationall policies. Not everyone's are the same (to wit: A E Phi not being allowed to wear their letters as pledges).

True. What I was referring to [in case you misunderstood] is being forced to wear sorority colors all the time.

[SthrnZeta]

Originally Posted by fantASTic

True. What I was referring to [in case you misunderstood] is being forced to wear sorority colors all the time.

We were encouraged to wear buttons, shirts we had been given, etc. as much as possible and no new member minded because we were so excited to be a part of Zeta. Now I KNOW that's not hazing! I'm sure most, if not all, GLOs do that. Participating in traditions such as waiting to wear letters, IMO, facilitates that sisterhood bond, and a pledge class bond. Not all traditions should be followed, true (circling fat type of hazing, for example) but I really feel this one is harmless!

[MysticCat]

Originally Posted by SthrnZeta

I was honestly jealous of the girls who had to wear their pledge ribbons all the time, I would have been proud to wear my sorority colors every day whether I was told to or not.

Originally Posted by fantASTic

Whether you're 'proud of it' or not, it's still hazing.

. . .

Regardless of what you 'feel', it's hazing. Sorry that your definition doesn't match the law.

Sorry, but neither does yours -- at least not any law I've ever heard of, and I am familiar with the hazing laws of at least some states. I've not run across any hazing law that would cover requiring new members/pledges/whatever to wear their pins or colors. Without more (such as the possible punishment for breaking this rule), I can't even see how it would meet the criteria of the NPC definition:

Hazing is defined as any action or situation with or without consent which recklessly, intentionally or unintentionally endangers the mental or physical health or safety of a student, or creates risk of injury, or causes discomfort, embarrassment, harassment or ridicule or which willfully destroys or removes public or private property for the purpose of initiation or admission into or affiliation with, or as a condition for continued membership in a chapter or colony of an NPC member fraternity.

No endangerment of physical or mental health, no risk of injury, not reasonably (at least, not without other factors) a cause of "discomfort, embarrassment, harassment or ridicule."

By itself, it just ain't hazing.