Minneapolis bridge collapses

[kathykd2005]

Originally Posted by jon1856

Just about any of them in the past few years.
Has been in the papers everyday since Minneapolis.
Many stories about: the need to replace it.
The hows and whys.
Those for and against every how and why.
The hows and whys of just repairing it to keep
it in one piece until it is replaced.

Bottom line: The bridge was made on the cheap, has out lasted
its life expectancy, and falling apart everyday.

True--but like I said earlier, who is going to pay for this? Will budgets be re-adjusted in order to do so? We'll see what happens. I have no idea, I just know that the situation in Minneapolis has sparked a lot of energy on the topic.

[AGDee]

Random thoughts here...

When they replaced the Rouge River Bridge in Detroit (part of I-75), from what I can remember, they built the bridge and rebuilt part of the freeway and then connected those to the old freeway. You can still see a draw bridge next to the original. I think they did this with the big Zilwaukee bridge over the Saginaw River up north. This can lead to minimal traffic disruption. It's not like the old bridge was out of commission the whole time the new one was being built. That was happening on either I-75 or 280 in Toledo also.

I saw a poll on some news channel yesterday "Should we pay for health care or fixing infrastructure like bridges?" My answer would be BOTH, instead of some of the other junk we pay for. Maybe that bridge to nowhere shoulda been somewhere else.

Infrastructure, if done right, seems like it should last a very long time. Pyramids? Isn't the basic infrastructure in Europe much older than ours? It seems like if it is maintained properly, it could last.

I agree that structurally deficient probably means something very different to civil engineers than it sounds to us. In my experience with inspections in health care, it is their job to find deficiencies and they will find some deficiency no matter what. The level of deficiency will vary and the number will vary, but every hospital in the country gets Type I and Type II recommendations from JCAHO. (Type I being more major than Type II). If a bad thing happened at any given hospital and those accreditation inspection reports were pulled, it would sound bad to lay people, I think.

[PM_Mama00]

Originally Posted by kathykd2005

Well, unfortunately, people have to travel on those roads, so it is difficult to simply replace bridges and roads altogether. I am picturing city/state government attempting to replace roads and bridges, and people flipping out...

There's been an ongoing project near AGDee and I that has closed a stretch of I75. They've been replacing all the overpasses.... actually tearing them all down and replacing them. They did the same on our Southfield Expressway. While it is an inconvenience between taking different routes, and dealing with traffic in our neighborhoods, you really appreciate it when you see stories like this.

So it's either people flipping out, or people dying. I'd rather people flip out.

[Drolefille]

St. Louis decided that they were going to completely redo 64/40 because of its age. While I can't remembr if they decided for sure, the options were 3-4 years if they did it in pieces, and 2 years if they just shut the whole thing down. Either way traffic was going to suck, so you might as well go all out. Yeah, people are going to get upset but usually you tell them "we do this or you will die" and they go along with it. Interestingly they'd just worked on all the overpasses on 40 before announcing this. I'm willing to bet they found a few they didn't like.

Also when it comes to bridges, you're not always suck rebuilding a bridge in the same place. Hannibal, MO built a new bridge across the Mississippi some distance away from the old one. That was easier than trying to renovate the old one or completely shut down travel across the river.

[DeltAlum]

They just finished what was supposed to be a seven year project widening I-25 (the Valley Highway) from the Denver Tech Center to Downtown. They did a really good job, I think. The contract called for at least three lanes to be open each way most of the day (there were a few overnights -- like midnight to 5:00 AM when it was down to two lanes -- and a couple of short distance total closures overnight) and replaced ALL of the bridges going over the highway along with most of the on and off ramps. They also added Light Rail the entire length of the project. It was called T-Rex which might give some idea of what was expected.

They managed to finish it more than a year early, and under budget.

It's not that there weren't hassles, nor was the job without problems, but given how screwed up it could have made things, I was pretty impressed.

I think this was the same company that re-built a lot of the freeways in Salt Lake City prior to the Olympics, which I hear was a headache of gigantic proportions.

They must have learned from their mistakes.

[Tom Earp]

Because of this, K C metro area is re upping bridge inspectiions!

@ 10 have been targeted and I know them all very well. Some are really scarry!

Talked with a friend who is a KsDot engineer and project coordinater and what he tells me makes me worry even more! All of these have been patched over for years and years. All of these bridges are over either the Kansas or Missouri Rivers.

Talk about patch work on highways, I-70 and I-435 are continually being worked on for the simple reason some moron decided re-bar was not needed! A new concept! What a disaster. Re-bar helps the concrete stay more stable.

St. Louis Bridges have been in terrible shape for years. The one over the Mississippi River that carries I-70, wow does it need help!

Was it the Eads Street Bridge that was closed so many years open up yet?

States just are not putting money in to infrastructure and the Federal Govt. is running out of money for their big fund also.

Amazing that Pork barreling is still big but for some funky things. Oh, to be PC, they are called ear marks now!

[kathykd2005]

Originally Posted by PM_Mama00

There's been an ongoing project near AGDee and I that has closed a stretch of I75. They've been replacing all the overpasses.... actually tearing them all down and replacing them. They did the same on our Southfield Expressway. While it is an inconvenience between taking different routes, and dealing with traffic in our neighborhoods, you really appreciate it when you see stories like this.

So it's either people flipping out, or people dying. I'd rather people flip out.

I didn't say that I wanted people to die, or that I'd flip out, I just said government will have a hard time getting all of this stuff passed, since people will flip out, and make it hard to do... There wasn't really a need to give the ultimatum of people "flipping out, or people dying."

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by kathykd2005

...I just said government will have a hard time getting all of this stuff passed, since people will flip out, and make it hard to do...

Clearly and understatement.

We seem to want everything..but don't want to pay for any of it.

It just doesn't work that way.

[kathykd2005]

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

Clearly and understatement.

We seem to want everything..but don't want to pay for any of it.

It just doesn't work that way.

Agreed--people do want everything and don't want to pay for it. As I said earlier--several times--I would be willing to pay higher taxes for services like repairs to highways and bridges; however, others may not feel the same way. It seems those of us posting in this thread are all coming from the same place and are on the same page.

[DeltAlum]

Originally Posted by kathykd2005

It seems those of us posting in this thread are all coming from the same place and are on the same page.

I wonder.

Let's take a real infomal, unscientific poll.

How many who read this thread would approve of a fairly substantial tax increase in order to replace decaying infrastructure?

I would.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by kathykd2005

True--but like I said earlier, who is going to pay for this? Will budgets be re-adjusted in order to do so? We'll see what happens. I have no idea, I just know that the situation in Minneapolis has sparked a lot of energy on the topic.

I agree. I do not see everyone opening up their check books to write a $5,500.00 check to the government anytime soon.

But we do have to realize that what "we have been trained to think" just maybe wrong. How many years have gone by that we have been told that taxes are evil, that taxes will not be raised, that taxes will be lowered et al.

Yet we still want and need our services. We still have to pay for government operations et al.

Perhaps it is time to review tax laws and codes and how they are used and mis-used.

Perhaps it is time to ask official and politicians, at all levels, why monies from dedicated highway funds are either not being used or if used mis-used.

[kathykd2005]

Originally Posted by jon1856

I agree. I do not see everyone opening up their check books to write a $5,500.00 check to the government anytime soon.

But we do have to realize that what "we have been trained to think" just maybe wrong. How many years have gone by that we have been told that taxes are evil, that taxes will not be raised, that taxes will be lowered et al.

Yet we still want and need our services. We still have to pay for government operations et al.

Perhaps it is time to review tax laws and codes and how they are used and mis-used.

Perhaps it is time to ask official and politicians, at all levels, why monies from dedicated highway funds are either not being used or if used mis-used.

Again, as I said earlier, I have no problems with raising taxes to pay for repairs to our highways and bridges. As I said earlier, other people, who you yourself have cited, WILL have a problem with taxes being raised. Perhaps it is time for society to re-assess how they view taxes and their purpose--I completely agree, and have for a long time...