Minneapolis bridge collapses

DeltAlum · #1 08-04-2007, 01:19 PM

"State transportation officials were warned as early as 1990 that the 40-year-old bridge was "structurally deficient" and in need of major repair or even replacement.

Federal inspectors gave the same forecast in 2005, but state engineers say the span was not slated for replacement until 2020.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSig RC

This is a complete misrepresentation of what those words mean to actual civil engineers.

I don't know what they might mean to a civil engineer, but I'll bet a lot of judges and juries are going to hear them in the not too distant future.

Tom Earp · #2 08-04-2007, 04:49 PM

What is sad, is the state of roads and bridges in this country!

The first Inter-State was under DDE as Presidents Adm.

It was started for Military situations and was begun in Ks. I-70.

So, it was expanded to what We know as the Super Highways of today that We all enjoy!

But, they are going to crap and who pays for it?

Either We do or there are deaths such as these and it will not be the last!

States raise taxes and miss use them, period! Oh don't forget about poor contractors and shoddy construction such as the Big Did in Boston!

Scarry isn't it?

How many Bridges or shitty Highways do you drive on?

DeltAlum · #3 08-04-2007, 09:59 PM

Am I the only one who thinks about this?

As I have traveled across the country, I have wondered how much our infrastructure cost to build, and how much it would be to replace it.

It was really brought home to me when I was living in New York City and considering how old everything looks.

The collapse of the steam tunnel there, and now this bridge episode in Minnesota have really brought those thoughts home.

The overall situation is really scary.

How in the world can we ever replace this stuff as it just simply wears out?

kathykd2005 · #4 08-04-2007, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

Am I the only one who thinks about this?

As I have traveled across the country, I have wondered how much our infrastructure cost to build, and how much it would be to replace it.

It was really brought home to me when I was living in New York City and considering how old everything looks.

The collapse of the steam tunnel there, and now this bridge episode in Minnesota have really brought those thoughts home.

The overall situation is really scary.

How in the world can we ever replace this stuff as it just simply wears out?

I was under the impression that they WERE fixing it when it collapsed. It seems to me that the blame here lies with the company who was orchestrating the update/repair of the bridge. I find it very suspicious that this bridge collapsed after being worked on and was scheduled to have more work done, when it has stayed up and running for years. Someone dropped the ball on this one...

DeltAlum · #5 08-04-2007, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kathykd2005

I was under the impression that they WERE fixing it when it collapsed. It seems to me that the blame here lies with the company who was orchestrating the update/repair of the bridge. I find it very suspicious that this bridge collapsed after being worked on and was scheduled to have more work done, when it has stayed up and running for years. Someone dropped the ball on this one...

I'll leave it to the engineering folks to figure that out.

I'm talking about replacing the stuff -- not sticking on a band-aid.

Sooner or later, band-aids don't help anymore.

kathykd2005 · #6 08-04-2007, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

I'll leave it to the engineering folks to figure that out.

I'm talking about replacing the stuff -- not sticking on a band-aid.

Sooner or later, band-aids don't help anymore.

Well, unfortunately, people have to travel on those roads, so it is difficult to simply replace bridges and roads altogether. I am picturing city/state government attempting to replace roads and bridges, and people flipping out...

DeltAlum · #7 08-04-2007, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kathykd2005

Well, unfortunately, people have to travel on those roads, so it is difficult to simply replace bridges and roads altogether. I am picturing city/state government attempting to replace roads and bridges, and people flipping out...

That's another piece of the equation.

jon1856 · #8 08-04-2007, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kathykd2005

Well, unfortunately, people have to travel on those roads, so it is difficult to simply replace bridges and roads altogether. I am picturing city/state government attempting to replace roads and bridges, and people flipping out...

Search "Tappan Zee Bridge" under both news and web for insight.

KSig RC · #9 08-06-2007, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kathykd2005

I was under the impression that they WERE fixing it when it collapsed. It seems to me that the blame here lies with the company who was orchestrating the update/repair of the bridge. I find it very suspicious that this bridge collapsed after being worked on and was scheduled to have more work done, when it has stayed up and running for years. Someone dropped the ball on this one...

There's almost no chance, according to structural engineers, that a 4-inch gap in the roadway caused the bridge to fail. This was the work performed by the construction crew, according to reports.

The roadway construction really has nothing to do with the integrity of the structure, which is based on force elements of the truss and it's connection with the roadway on each side of the river and via the infamous "ten pins" across the span.

The very existence of the roadway crew on the bridge is likely an unfortunate strawman that will cause debate like this (and even the civil cases Delt mentioned), instead of discovery of the actual cause and problems that likely exist in other, similar bridges.

kathykd2005 · #10 08-06-2007, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSig RC

There's almost no chance, according to structural engineers, that a 4-inch gap in the roadway caused the bridge to fail. This was the work performed by the construction crew, according to report.

I believe it was a bit more complicated than a "4-inch gap" as you so gingerly put it. Both of these stories cite numerous problems with the bridge, most likely aggravated by the construction on the bridge:

http://wcco.com/local/local_story_217151047.html

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation..._bridge03.html

In the second article, an expert states,
"I would be stunned if this didn't have something to do with the construction project," said David Schulz, director of the Infrastructure Technology Institute at Northwestern University. "I think it's a major factor."

Although there is evidence for both sides of this argument, your assertion that the viewpoint I offered is completely unfounded is ridiculous. Experts, including "engineers," as you stated, are still not sure what caused the collapse. I was simply stating my own suspicions...

KSig RC · #11 08-06-2007, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kathykd2005

I believe it was a bit more compliated than a "4-inch gap" as you so gingerly put it. Both of these stories cite numerous problems with the bridge, most likely aggravated by the construction on the bridge:c

http://wcco.com/local/local_story_217151047.html

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation..._bridge03.html

In the second article, an expert states,
"I would be stunned if this didn't have something to do with the construction project," said David Schulz, director of the Infrastructure Technology Institute at Northwestern University. "I think it's a major factor."

Although there is evidence for both sides of this argument, your assertion that the viewpoint I offered is completely unfounded is ridiculous. Experts, including "engineers," as you stated, are still not sure what caused the collapse. I was simply stating my own suspicions...

OK - I should have been more specific, and I meant to point out a larger issue rather than acting like your suspicions were "unfounded" (everyone's are, at this point, honestly - nothing wrong with that). My bad - I really didn't mean for it to be that 'pointed' or specific to your views.

The construction itself was moderately superficial - however, there was a lot of equipment on the scene, much of it very heavy equipment, and the work went on around the clock. Could the excess weight have contributed? Surely - that's one current avenue of exploration.

Did the construction exacerbate an existing problem? This seems intuitively likely. However, we've all seen construction on bridges where part of the roadbed has been removed, altered or worked on - it's clear this doesn't usually cause the bridge to fail (which is what I meant before).

I really meant my point as more of a diatribe against news sources like CNN and FOX, which have ran wild with speculation rather than news reporting. FOX particularly ran with several "eye witness" interviews and speculation about the road construction, which should have been 'routine' (obviously), that seemed to blame the construction workers for making some catastrophic error . . . likely the problem was much more insidious than a simple worker error, though. It's just bizarre, to me.

I guess this might be something where I have deeper concerns - does the state (or the construction contractor) really check the interactions between roadway equipment, actual work and traffic with the existing structure? Do we go into a panic mode and alter every bridge with "structurally deficient" ratings (even though these are supposedly traversable)? Don't these two issues intersect in a potentially harmful way?

Again, sorry to sound like I wanted to single you out - but yeah, around here people are panicking every time a construction crew removes part of a roadbed. It just seems like it's a symptom of a larger problem, and I should have been more transparent with that thought.

Similarly, the shock-value headlines decrying the bridge's condition as "structurally deficient" really seem set to cause an uproar - and, granted, it sucks that such harsh terms are used, because it kind of invites these sort of reactions, but no one thought anything of this until a bunch of people died/got hurt. It's kind of sick, really.

jon1856 · #12 08-04-2007, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltAlum

Am I the only one who thinks about this?

As I have traveled across the country, I have wondered how much our infrastructure cost to build, and how much it would be to replace it.

It was really brought home to me when I was living in New York City and considering how old everything looks.

The collapse of the steam tunnel there, and now this bridge episode in Minnesota have really brought those thoughts home.

The overall situation is really scary.

How in the world can we ever replace this stuff as it just simply wears out?

CBS-Radio had a report the other day that put the cost at $5,500.00 per person in the US. Not sure if that was everyone or "taxpaying Adults".
It was over a Trillion dollars.
As someone else posted, states have used monies that were "dedicated" to road/highway/bridge repair for everything else.

As we as voters have been "taught" over the past several years to think that no tax raises or lower taxes would be good for us all.