Sex Change and Membership

[Little E]

I never really post on here anymore but this one hit home. My chapter bid a woman who was considering reassignment. It was a long process - in terms of her deciding on the bid - ultimately it didn't make sense for her to join (to herself, not the chapter). She felt that because she really was a man, a woman's organization didn't really fit her. The founding principles would never fully click because at the heart of single-sex orgs is that we are single sex.

I think while 99% of the of the chapters in the world will never deal with this, there are a few of us weird non-conformist chapters out there, it is always good to know you aren't the only group posed with the question.

Side note: Reassingment is a very very long process. There is no way you would ever see an 18 year old going through rush who is about to get the surgery. Living as the opposite sex, yes, but probably not reassigned. From what I understand, you need to be completely done with puberty (for men this last much longer than women if you remember hs health class) then you have all of the psych counceling and hormone therapy. It takes years. I think this question is more pertinant to what happens when an alumn gets reassingned (my guess is they would be asked to resign if National ever even found out).

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by Little E

Side note: Reassignment is a very very long process. There is no way you would ever see an 18 year old going through rush who is about to get the surgery. Living as the opposite sex, yes, but probably not reassigned. From what I understand, you need to be completely done with puberty (for men this last much longer than women if you remember HS health class) then you have all of the psych counseling and hormone therapy. It takes years. I think this question is more pertinent to what happens when an alumni gets reassigned (my guess is they would be asked to resign if National ever even found out).

As I posted above, one of my pledge Brothers DID did go through the process; way after graduation.

My Brother is STILL listed as an active Brother; just with a new name.
National had to know something about it.

[summer_gphib]

Oh My Goodness, what a thread. I just really hope any stalker-type PNM's don't get the idea, that if they've rushed two or three times and still didn't get a bid, that they can have gender reassignment and try rushing. I can see it now. XYZ sorority wouldn't give me a bid, so I decided to change genders so I can be a member of ABC fraternity.

***
disclaimer: The above was said in complete sarcasm and is rolling in smartassedness. I have nothing against transgendered people, or anyone living an alternative lifestyle. I do however, have something against stalker-type PNM's.

[UGAalum94]

Originally Posted by summer_gphib

disclaimer: The above was said in complete sarcasm and is rolling in smartassedness.

This word made me laugh. It's so perfect. I'd also like smartassity.

[indygphib]

Originally Posted by AlphaGamUGAAlum

This word made me laugh. It's so perfect. I'd also like smartassity.

Sounds like a Jeapordy category - "I'll take smartassity for $200, Alex"

</hijack>

[AlphaFrog]

I'm feeling like this thread needs a SHIM referance...

Why are all of the threads lately bringing back old jokes?

[PSUSigKap]

Our Panhellenic actually had to deal with something kind of like this. At one time we had an organization who was an associate member of Panhellenic called Lambda Delta Omega which is a multi-cultural sorority for lesbians, bi-sexuals and heterosexual women. They had a transgendered male member (living as a female) who they wanted to be their Panhellenic representative. The powers that be (I don't know the process they went through) determined he could not be the LDO representative because he was not technically or legally a woman.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by jon1856

As I posted above, one of my pledge Brothers DID did go through the process; way after graduation.

My Brother is STILL listed as an active Brother; just with a new name.
National had to know something about it.

Possibly not -- those directories are handled through third party companies. They may sell their name and address lists back to your National. I really doubt they are aware over there (or want to be aware) of this alumnus' gender reassignment.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Possibly not -- those directories are handled through third party companies. They may sell their name and address lists back to your National. I really doubt they are aware over there (or want to be aware) of this alumnus' gender reassignment.

I am not talking about paper directories, I am talking about my Nationals own data base.
Just how much they know, I do not care to ask or find out.
It does not bother me at all.

[Low C Sharp]

This may not come up much with rushees, but it DOES come up at women's colleges...pretty frequently. Smith College has had a raging debate about what to do when a student decides to officially identify as male.
________
Peach

[AKA_Monet]

Medically and psychologically, there is much debate about gender reassignment with full European change operation. The issue is from male to female vs. female to male is inherently unequal--i.e. the equipment is not fully operational...

Then psychologically, is it enough because someone "feels" like they are the wrong gender without gross genetic evidence, like Klinefelter's or other pseudohemaphroditism.

And the genetic evidence is strong... Sex determination at the zygote occurs roughly 2-3 days after fertilization and 8-16 cell stage. This process is not necessarily complete. What determines the male is testicular formation NOT penile formation. The genes that regulate testicular formation are on the Y chromosome--the 1-2 genes that are actually on the piece of DNA that are functional... Penile formation occurs on autosome(s), not sex chromosomes... So, it is possible that a genetic female (XX) has a penis--albeit not functional if she has some uterus and reminants of ovaries. More likely, she is not born with female parts, but a gapping hole.

Now these things constitute birth defects and are treated as such. Waiting for the baby to grow up and decide usually is painful that is why the doctors make the surgical decision based on the parents wishes at that time. And infant healing is relatively rapid.

However, loss of hormonal development at puberty is what is at stake. Girls who do not have somekind of menstruation at 10/11 till 14 years old are ostracized. Boys generally start their maturation and fighting at 9-13 years old as dictated by testosterone production.

So, if a PNM has a question regarding their gender identification, that is when I would ask her to see some kind of therapist. The issue for the organization is will programs be best served by this kind person if extended membership? That is not discrimination if they cannot fullfill the basic housing requirement.

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I'd think they'd be given the boot. Our rules clearly specify that a member "must be a man." They do not say "must be a man at the time of initiation" or anything like that. It stands to reason that if they are no longer a man, they are also no longer a member.

Originally Posted by Kevin

I'm sure all fraternities have means by which a member can be expelled. If a member ceases to meet the minimum requirements which a member must meet, PC or not, they're gone. For us, there are other automatic expulsion rules (like being convicted of a felony, failing to pay dues, etc.)

My interpretation is a literal one -- if one's gender is physically changed, that person, nor the state, nor anyone else views it as a genital mutilation. They view it as gender reassignment.

Far be it from me to tell your fraternity how to treat this situation. How would mine handle it? If you're not a man, you're not a member. Easy.

I don't think a largely conservative, old, traditional organization such as mine is going to wiggle around with shifting definitions of gender so that we can keep a person on the membership roster after gender reassignment. They'll just be out.

Kevin;
I generally agree with what you post. However your postings here raise questions:
Are these your POV's, your chapter POV's, or your National POV's/rules/regulations?
And if they are your Nationals, are these your interpretations or are they direct from your National?

And are you referring to undergrad membership or alumni? Or both?

As I posted, I had pledge brother under-go a change, as an alumni.

While others knew about it, I found out while going thought Alumni records from National. Which means, at least,
1)Some data entry person received my Brothers formal request to change name, address, and phone number (among other data including at least one bit of information NOT found in general data bases).
2) My Brother changed it on his own and no one noticed it. However, as I pointed out, my Brothers' change is not a secret.
On the other hand, I do not locate the name of a EX-Brother, different chapter, who I know committed a felony. And is now serving hard time for it.

[Drolefille]

He did say "I think"

[jon1856]

Originally Posted by Drolefille

He did say "I think"

True, however he added a great deal more to it than just "I think".
Which is why I asked him to clarify his posting.

And since you brought this up, what would happen in your GLO if someone switched?
And to keep it simple, they are not an active undergrad.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by jon1856

True, however he added a great deal more to it than just "I think".
Which is why I asked him to clarify his posting.

And since you brought this up, what would happen in your GLO if someone switched?
And to keep in simple, they are not an active undergrad.

I don't think my organization has ever had to seriously examine this question. It's probably something they'd need to hire some tax lawyers to figure out, thus the subject is best avoided.